Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Self Love & Spiritual Growth

Ross Tayler: Today I'm happy to have a conversation with Reverend Thomas DeSchutter. He invites you to live your best life as the loving presence of your own spiritual self. Drawing on diverse wisdom teachings and prayerful practices, he affirms that each of us is whole, complete, and infinitely capable of growth. His live sessions on Insight Timer have blossomed into a soul-filled community of truth seekers, where safety, openness and authentic connection allow people to experience the best version of themselves. Ordained in 2023 with a Master of Divinity from Unity Worldwide Ministries, Reverend Thomas serves as Senior Minister of Unity Vancouver Island. He is also an award-winning drummer, devoted family man, and lifelong creator living on the west coast of Canada. He often reminds us that everything we want for ourselves and our lives comes from within. So happy to have you here today.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Thank you so much, Ross, for having me. I appreciate it.

Ross Tayler: I believe you're going to begin by leading us with an opening prayer.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah, I thought it would be appropriate to start off with the foundational building block of Unity, which was based on healing and affirmative prayer. Shall I just take it from here?

Ross Tayler: Go for it.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Okay. I'll invite everybody to join me now. If you're comfortable, please close your eyes. If not, just find a place in front of you where you can soften your gaze and sit peacefully, and allow yourself to be breathed. Your body knows what to do. It'll take its breath, and you can allow that to naturally unfold.

[Rev. Thomas DeSchutter leads an opening affirmative prayer.]

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Take a nice deep breath in. Hold it at the top and let it go nice and slow. Allow yourself to return to your breath and enjoy this conversation.

Ross Tayler: That was great. Thank you. What a great way to start out our conversation. There was a line in there that spoke to me, and I wanted to bring it up as our first talking point. You said, what appears as chaos is, in truth, the reorganization of love. What would you say about that statement?

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah, that came up because recently I've been playing with the idea of quantum physics and entropy, which is the steady decline of things into chaos, and this idea that the future is not written, although there are almost certain probable outcomes. I like to think of life as pure perfection, not perfect in the way of, it went the way I wanted it to, but perfect in the way that the universe can only unfold perfectly. There are no mistakes. Everything that's in the soup is in the soup, and you can only get what's in the soup. What the future represents to me is that although there is that soup already at play, we have this great opportunity to influence the future through our thoughts and our feelings and our emotions. Through the act of bringing love into a constant state of presence, and in Unity, love is one of our twelve powers, it resides in our heart space, and the meaning of that is more of harmonization. When we bring love into things, it begins to reorganize the world around us. What might have been turning into entropy and a slow, steady decline, by bringing love, it reorganizes that chaos into a life that we can then write the future of, if you will.

Ross Tayler: I love that, and it reminds me of the journey that many of us go through in our lives, of turning the experiences we've had into something more meaningful, and love is that medicine that can quickly do that.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah, and it fits perfectly with the idea of Unity's teaching of affirmative prayer. It fits perfectly into quantum physics, an almost certain probable future. However, through our words and our actions we can manifest, and that's really what manifestation is for me, that we manifest the future that we are excited about. There's this great scripture from the Gospel of Thomas, which is a sayings gospel, so there are no teachings in it, just sayings. The idea is, when the two become one, and I've always taken that to mean that when the two, my thoughts and my feelings, become one, then I can move any mountain. Those mountains being the struggles that I might be experiencing in my own life, in my own thoughts, and what's showing up in front of me. By bringing our energy into our presence, and then having the thoughts that align with that, and putting those things together, and then bringing that harmonization of love, of being of service, of generating something positive in the world, that's where you become, in my mind, unstoppable. That's where you become the person that lives their life in their best way.

Ross Tayler: So much of that comes back to what we're able to bring into the present moment. That reminds me, yesterday I was on a walk in the forest, and I was very much in my mental energy, having a conversation with my guides, and my guides just said, hey, slow down, stop. It was hard for me to do. I was on a walk, I was having these experiences and trying to make sense of things. Eventually I stopped and connected with the trees, and I started to connect with a presence that I wasn't connected with while I was moving. All of a sudden this quiet clarity came. For myself, I would root that in the idea of love as well. That slowing down and connecting within, which is one of the things you also wrote in your bio, that when we source from within, we can influence so many different outcomes.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: That's so well said. I know what you mean. I've had those moments on those walks in the forest where the chatter is going on, and it's like, wait a second, dude, look around. You're in this beautiful spot with all this life force around you. Just chill out and breathe it in. But I would say that having been somebody who's suffered at various times in my life, as I'm sure you have, and anybody listening to this can attest to, you have suffering. I've gotten to the place in my life where it's my life, so if it shows up in my life, I'm responsible. That's how I approach life. Whatever is showing up in my life, in my mind, has come from something within me. I've attracted that energy into my life, either to see it so I can course correct, or to bring some suffering onto me because I haven't been listening to those nudges that say, hey, maybe go this direction, and then you ignore it. It's like, knock, knock, knock, hey dude, go this direction, and you ignore it, and then a rock falls on your head and says, hey, go this direction. Maybe finally you get the message that there's something here for you to do.

Ross Tayler: That's so true. On my journey, I think of that idea that lessons are repeated until learned. There's a kind of amplification as you keep going through the experience like you just described. Everything is a reflection. I really believe we live in this hall of mirrors. When the same kind of personality keeps showing up and challenging us, stopping and saying, wait a second, why do I continue to face this kind of personality and work through it and be triggered by it? Once you start to accept that there might be something for me to look at, things start to change. That's the beautiful thing. We can be powerful in shifting our perspective and the outcomes by taking responsibility, like you said.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah, to me, it's the super sauce that we can have, that we take ownership for our part in everything that's going on. It doesn't mean you take ownership for other people's part. It also means you don't sit around looking to blame others. It means that you take an honest look and say, how did this show up in my life? What is there for me to see, so that I can move forward powerfully? Sometimes it feels great to wallow and sit in the muck. I've had many days where it's like, I'm not doing anything. But at some point I always find, you know what, I want to live my life. I want to get going. I want to move forward. What I've seen now, which I wasn't aware of 20 years ago, is that it actually just requires me being responsible and taking on the responsibility for what is mine, so that I can actually love myself, and love myself through it. I have this saying that I've shared many times on my Insight Timer sessions: I want to have so much love for myself that I just have to give it away. It's just spewing out of me. On top of that, I don't actually need to look for it from somebody else.

Ross Tayler: Yeah, that's a big one right there, not having to look for it from somebody else. It's a trap that I've fallen into over the years, and this idea of loving self first is probably the biggest challenge. To be honest, I'm still working on layers of it, for sure, just the depth of what's available. It's an interesting journey, let's put it that way.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah. I find that people like yourself doing something like this, the Sacred Sundays podcast, and obviously my stepping into a Unity church in 2017 and hearing Reverend Patricia [?] speak and just going, wow, this speaks to me. Those little nudges, and listening to them, and then learning how you can take tools, ways of being really, that can strengthen your resolve and your self-expression and your self-confidence. Those are like magic for anybody, for whatever you're going through, when you can draw on that from within. Just like you can create your own hell, I often think that what the Bible was trying to teach us was that heaven is right here on earth. It's not somewhere else. It's right here, right now. I can live in that peace and that place of love right here, right now, or I can live in hell right here, right now, and I get to choose.

Ross Tayler: You just articulated something that I have believed since I was quite young. We lived right next door to a church, and I decided on my own to go and check it out. I was young enough that I was going to the classes, and the first thing that confronted me was this idea of heaven and hell. I thought, something just doesn't feel right about the way this teaching is being presented. It ultimately created a distance between those teachings and myself. I've always held that belief that you just articulated so well, that we have that choice.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah. For me, life, gosh, I'm 60 years old now. I've finally figured out a couple of things. There are many more to figure out, but I've gotten to that place where my greatest power lies in my ability to choose and to stand with love in those choices. I just did a talk on Sunday down in Victoria called The Steadfast Heart, and it's about standing in your truth, and also about standing in a place of service to others. When you combine those two things together, in my mind, you really start cooking with gas. Not only are you strong and resolute in who you are as a person, and able to take things and not make them mean anything, and allow yourself the space to take a breath and respond from a place of love, now you're actually operating in a place of power all the time. It's not a power that is overriding others. It's a power that is conveying to people, I heard you, I understand what you're saying, and I'd like to partner with you, but I need to do it in this way.

Ross Tayler: Power is such an interesting word, and I know that it's been the theme of this month and no surprise that it's been on my mind. I've been working with that word. I thought back to a reading I had maybe 20 years ago where I was told to step into my power, and I didn't know what that meant. I had no idea what that meant. I needed context. I've come to this place where the most powerful way that we can show up, I believe, is to be ourselves. That's another hurdle to work through, to be yourself. But what happens is there's this energetic truth that begins to emerge when we're in alignment with ourselves. Everything shifts into place, and people can feel that resonance in how we're being, because there's no distortion in the way that we're showing up. Would you agree?

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah, you made me think of something that I've aspired not so much to be, but to understand. I've had the great privilege of working in various roles throughout my life, and one of the areas I worked in was film and television in Vancouver for a number of years. I worked with some pretty major movie stars, not stars in the sense of, they're a star, but owners of their craft. I also worked with some amazing cinematographers who understood what they did and carried themselves in such a way that, I've watched that from afar and understood, there's a way of being where they walk into a room and it commands attention, not from a place of, look at me. They're not walking into the room making a loud noise or making a fuss so that people pay attention. They walk into a room and have an energy that says, I'm here, not, I'm here, look at me. It's interesting to see the difference, because I've seen the other side, where somebody walks into a room and needs to cause a ruckus in order to get the attention, versus somebody who can just walk into a room and people feel that energy.

Ross Tayler: I know that energy. I know exactly what you're talking about, and that really is well said. Thank you.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah. I think it comes from a place of knowing yourself and being confident in what you do. As a minister, I've got to say it's taken me, I've now been the spiritual leader at Unity Vancouver Island for just over a year, and it really took me that year to understand the lay of the land, how to deal with congregations and all these different ideas and energies and influences and people with their wants and needs. Then also to understand my role as a spiritual leader and, for lack of a better term, a visionary, because I'm looked upon to have a vision for the ministry as it unfolds. I've taken the work from the board of directors that is voted in by the congregation, and they present me with a contract that says this is the requirement for me to fulfill my duties as the minister, and in that is leadership and managing Sunday services and managing the spiritual direction of the organization and the messaging. It's taken me a while to land in this place of, this is what I do, and here's how I'm going to do it.

Ross Tayler: To me that sounds like there's some sort of claiming of the space.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Bingo.

Ross Tayler: When you claim the space, what becomes possible?

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: That's a great question. For me, the claiming of the space is interesting because it's more of a claiming of the space within myself, letting go of the self-doubt, letting go of the timidness of, should I say this, shouldn't I say this? There was a lot of deferral in the first few months of, what do I do, what don't I do, how do I act, how don't I act, uncertainty. To answer your question, the claiming of the space is really within myself, of owning it to a place where I embody my meaning of minister.

Ross Tayler: I like that, I really do. On my own journey, I've been in positions of leadership for years, and it can be a lonely place, because being of service to an organization or a congregation, if we're not solid in ourselves, we can start to waver, we can start to be pushed in different directions. To be anchored in ourselves is to be anchored in the congregation. There's something at play there with both of those perspectives, and there's way more.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: You kind of hit on something. One of the strongest lessons I learned going through seminary was about triangulation. It's funny, when they explained it, it was like, yeah, that makes sense, but I had never thought of it. I never looked at certain situations in my life where I was actually involved in triangulation, though I would never have put that terminology on it. It's this idea of playing people off one another, or trying to always win by playing groups against one another, getting caught in these places where, they said this, and then they said that, and then you're basically allowing rifts inside your organization, and in this case a spiritual community, to grow and develop. I believe that if you're not strong and steadfast in your understanding of what it means to be a spiritual leader or a minister, you could easily fall into those traps, because you want to be loved by everybody. Operating from that place, it's not your job to be loved by everybody. That's actually not in the fifty statements of truth that I agreed to as a minister. Does it say you need to be loved by everybody? It doesn't say that anywhere. So again, it goes back to that. If I love myself enough and I am a stand for love, then I don't need to follow along on anything. I can make choices and say, no, I'm not doing that, actually. Thank you for the invitation, but I'm not going to do that. Or, no, we're not going to be doing that. Or, yes, that's exactly what we're going to be doing, that's a great idea. It requires that kind of understanding about yourself and knowing what the path is that we're going to walk, and then staying to that knitting as much as possible. It requires some strength at times, to not drift off of that.

Ross Tayler: That is so important. The idea of creating unity within the congregation is, I would imagine, a goal of what you're trying to achieve, but unity doesn't always have to look like everybody being in agreement either.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah. The definition of unity for me is that we all understand that we are of one source, of one presence, of one humanity. There is no separation. The separation is perceived. Some of the role is to lay out the groundwork so that anybody who is feeling separated, feeling outside, feeling unloved, or however you want to phrase it, knows that it's not true. It's really just perceived brokenness. You're already whole and complete. The work is to bring somebody back to that knowing, that that's already a given, and the perception has just drifted off that path. Everybody is whole and complete. Nobody needs fixing. One of my rules on my Insight Timer sessions is there's no fixing allowed. People can share what they need to share, and nobody comes in to rescue and fix. If you do, I'm like, no, nobody's doing that here, because nobody's broken. There's just perceived brokenness, and they may ask for a tool or something that might be helpful, and that's one thing, but to approach it as if they need fixing, that's offside to me. That's not Unity at all. We're all wonderful and we all have struggles.

Ross Tayler: I feel like what you're pointing to is to come full circle back to that opening with the quantum soup, and the way that we connect with that quantum soup and influence it.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah, it's exactly that. It gets back to that probable, almost certain outcome. If nothing changes here, if I make no shifts, if I don't think differently, if I don't act differently, if I don't change things up, then the probable, almost certain future will look this way. And wait a second, I can actually change that.

Ross Tayler: Right. That reminds me, we've used the word responsibility a few times, and you may have heard this before: if you break down responsibility and flip it, it's response-ability, which is your ability to respond, which is exactly what's required when you come up against an awareness that something's not going to change. How am I going to respond to that?

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah. I'll drop the Unity five principles here, in a very shortened version. Principle one is understanding that God is. Whatever that word means to you, whatever word you want to use in its place, the presence, life itself, life force, the quantum field, it exists. It's there. Principle number two is, I am. I am in the likeness of that. I too am that thing. It's in me. Principle three is, my thoughts create my reality, so, I think. So we've got God is, I am, I think. Number four is, I affirm. That's the act of affirmative prayer, affirming my outcomes, affirming what is truly right for me, the truth of what is inside me. I affirm that. The fifth principle is, I act. You've got to step into the action of doing in order for that manifestation to occur. There has to be the action that goes with it. In Unity we say, live the truth you know. So you affirm that truth, and then you live the truth that you know.

Ross Tayler: Thank you for sharing that. It really does solidify everything we've been talking about in a very concrete way.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yes, I usually rifle it off to somebody: God is, I am, I think, I affirm, I act.

Ross Tayler: Yeah. The first one is interesting. It reminds me of my time working in addiction treatment centers, and the AA principles talk a lot about addiction being a spiritual problem. The first step is to connect and hand this addiction over to a higher power, and there's so much resistance to that. I remember one or two people coming to the center, and we weren't completely aligned with AA as the core of our program, and yet people would see the book on the table and be like, I'm out. There's so much resistance to spirituality. I came across this acronym, GUS, G-U-S, which stood for God, Universe, Source. It was a way to bridge that gap between resistance toward spirituality and openness to it. Usually it created enough of a laugh that someone was able to identify it, which was the first step, understanding that God is, like you said, and finding a way to do that in a way that feels aligned.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah, that's so awesome. If you go back to the book The Four Agreements, the dream of the planet that is mentioned in it, the word God has such a story behind it that if somebody can't reframe that word for themselves and they have a problem with it, they're going to struggle with it. Can I share a quick story?

Ross Tayler: Please.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: I was very early on in my ministerial classes, and I had no idea what I was doing there. How did this happen to me? This is not what I planned in my life at all. One of my first classes was about understanding my place in spirituality and my own thoughts around it. I had to do a questionnaire that took about 90 minutes, and then a one-on-one call with the instructor to review all of my answers. It was asking me questions like, what religion were you brought up in? I was raised going to a Catholic church. I went to Sunday school. I was an altar boy for a period of time. Then I ran away from that at 18. I was like, I don't want anything to do with this. I never went back to any spiritual organization, church or otherwise, until I found Unity in 2017, in my mid fifties. I put down on the questionnaire that I don't want anything to do with this word, God, the Bible, all of these things that triggered me. All of these things were a problem. Then I'm having the meeting with the instructor, reviewing that, and she says to me, well, isn't it interesting? I'm totally into the teachings of Unity at this point. I'm full sunk in, I love it. She says, isn't it interesting that you're choosing to be a minister in an organization that actually uses the Bible metaphysically and sees Jesus as a way-shower, as the example to live by, not the exception? There's a difference. We don't see him as the exception, we see him as the example, so we too could achieve that level of consciousness that Jesus obtained. I just started laughing at how crazy it was that the whole time I was answering this questionnaire, I was against anything that even resembled my old religious upbringing, and yet I was applying to be a minister in an organization that actually used the Bible and spoke about Jesus. I realized in that moment that all I've done is reframe the word God and what all of that stuff meant to me, in a different perception. I've rewritten for myself how I view it, and now I can actually work with it.

Ross Tayler: It makes me think there's always this sense of humor that I have connected to spirituality, of how these things unfold and how we end up where we end up. There is something quite humorous about how these things come to be. It reminds me not to take things so seriously, because there's always this path that we're being guided along. I love that you found yourself in that situation, in that moment, and had that clarity, because I think we all have those moments if we're open to them.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Yeah. The laugh is right, because that's exactly what I did. I laughed at how hilarious this is, that I went into this thinking, I am never going to do anything that resembles that religious upbringing, and I was actually diving deeper into it from a completely different set of principles and truths, but still using it. When I give my talks on Sundays, I'm quite likely to bring in a Bible scripture and interpret it metaphysically, like the Thomas one I gave, when the two become one, you can move any mountain, and it has nothing to do with moving an actual mountain. The mountain is, metaphysically, the challenges that we face. You could take the Bible literally, or you could take it metaphysically. It's a very simple metaphysical approach for any wisdom teaching: how does this show up in me? You read something and you ask that question, how does this show up in me, and you're well on your way to interpreting things in a much different light, where it becomes a tool and a teaching for yourself to aspire to the best life you could live.

Ross Tayler: I love that. Let's shift the conversation for the last few minutes. I want to give you an opportunity to talk about how music has influenced you and your life. I know a few minutes isn't going to do that justice, but I do want to give voice to it, because it is a big part of who you are and how I experience you. What would you like to say about your relationship to music?

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Wow. This will be hard to do in two minutes or less. Music, I still have an internal disagreement with music in me, and it comes from still working on letting go of how that went. When I was a young boy, grade three to be exact, I moved to the Vancouver area from Winnipeg and moved right next door to a guy in my grade three class who had a drum set. I remember he brought me to his house and I walked down the steps and there was this beautiful four-piece Rogers fish-eye drum kit sitting there, kind of turquoisey green with blue. My mouth just hit the floor. I had never seen a drum set live in person. He let me play it for about 30 seconds and then he kicked me off it. That was it. I was hooked on wanting to be a drummer. I used to go to Drums Only [?] every weekend that I possibly could. I'd ride the bus from Tsawwassen to East Van, which back then took the better part of two hours, and walk around the store, and they'd let me hit drum kits, not for hours, but I could get a good few whacks in. In grade four another guy moved to Tsawwassen, and in grade five he got a drum set, and he was my friend. I would sneak in once in a while on his drum kit and play it. Then finally in grade seven, my parents, Christmas morning, there was a drum set under the tree. My first question when I saw it, this is so funny, was, what is it? My second question was, who is it for? Of course everybody was standing around with their cameras as I entered the room, but I was still dumbfounded. Then I just played. I played to records constantly. I never took lessons. I don't know how to read music. I still don't know how to read music today. I just played and played and played, and eventually became a huge Rush fan, which I still am today. Neil Peart is my drumming hero and guru, but I have many drumming gurus.

My conflict with music is that, and this is a great lesson for my life, I was in a band back in the 90s where we recorded two albums. We had some songs on a TV show. We did some tours across Canada and we were gaining some success. At some point the shift went from playing music to, how do we get a record deal? The lesson goes back to the beginning here: if you're looking for love from somebody else, you're never going to find it. That's what I equate that to. We were looking for some record label to give us the blessing that we were good, so we were doing whatever we could, including rethinking how we should play music for what might attract a record label, when they have no clue. We would know better. We're making the music. Why don't we just make the music that we want to make? I lost sight of that. I became jaded and cynical about the music industry and lost that passion for playing and creating music.

Fortunately, in the last seven years or so of being at Unity, and I hadn't played my drums in 20 years, Joshua Holloway [?] had a show to do and invited me to play drums, three days before the show, of jazz standards, which I don't know how to play, and I don't read music, and my mouth just said yes while I was thinking no the whole time. I played with them and it went fine, and then I just started playing again. Now I'm in a swing band, and I'm having a blast learning how to play swing. I've got a gig coming up with a group of guys, a 60s, 70s and 80s rock night with three really awesome professional musicians, and I get to tag along because it's our venue, and I get to say that I get to play drums. I'm finding my way back to that passionate love for music, but I'm still very critical of my playing and of what I don't know and that I can't read music. I have this internal dialogue and battle in my relationship with my playing of music versus my listening to music, if that makes any sense. You could say it this way: I am on a healing journey, a healing road, with my approach to playing music again.

Ross Tayler: I love that. I'm going to leave that story to stand on its own and let people glean from it what they will, because it does feel like a full closure of what we've been talking about. I always like to ask my guests at the very end, how would you suggest that someone could connect with the sacred today?

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Oof. I see that as a two-part question, because in my Unity teachings, you already are. You're never not connected to the sacred. What might be missing is the understanding that you are connected to the sacred. Maybe you need a tool to do that, or maybe you need an understanding. For me, what allowed me to find my way back was reading A Course in Miracles. I don't believe that's what somebody should necessarily do. It's a pretty hard read. But I would say, podcasts like this, listening to other people, hearing that it's actually okay for you to start that journey of understanding that you're already connected. Spirituality is about life itself, the energy of life. Just go out into the forest and you can feel the energy of life. That to me is spirit. That to me is God. That to me is the universe. It's the sacred. It's in everything, this energy of life, and that's why I have such a love for life. I've connected that, and I realize that is the sacred truth of God. It's not some God up in the sky judging me and all of that. It is actually life itself. That source energy is it. It's a matter of thinking about that and seeing it for yourself, to understand that your life is sacred and it's yours.

Ross Tayler: I love it. Thank you for that. For people who want to stay connected or explore more of your work, where's the best place for them to find you?

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: I'll do a plug for Unity Vancouver Island. You can find us on YouTube. We do our Sunday services live from Nanaimo, and you'll find a selection of talks and meditations there. The other place to find me is on Insight Timer, where I do a live session. People from around the globe join me, and there are beautiful people there who have been joining me on a regular basis for the last five years. It's become a real sacred space for me, a practice zone to practice being me, in my best self I can.

Ross Tayler: I'm so grateful that we were able to have this conversation together, and so grateful that I get to continue this conversation with you offline. I appreciate the gifts that you shared as we connected together.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Thank you, Ross. I'll tell you secretly, my goal was to get to an hour. You told me it's usually 30 to 40 minutes, and I was like, let's see if we can push this to an hour today.

Ross Tayler: We could have, if I continued asking questions, because there were tons, in the end, let me tell you. That's awesome.

Rev. Thomas DeSchutter: Hey, thank you so much. I feel blessed to have been included here. If anybody ever wants to reach out to me personally, find me on social media and send me a message. I'll do my best to reply. Thanks a lot for having me.

Ross Tayler: You're very welcome. And to everyone listening, thank you for tuning in. Until next time, take good care.