Michael Sherlock: Slow Down to Be Present

Ross Tayler (00:00)

Hello, I'm Ross Tayler, your host and guide for Sacred Sundays, a space to slow down, tune in, and return to what's sacred within and around you. I'm also a life coach for empaths and sensitive souls, walking alongside those who are ready to come home to who they actually are. These conversations are part of fulfilling that purpose, a collective exploration of what it means to live in connection with the sacred. Some weeks you'll hear a sound-based offering to open the space. Other times we'll simply begin in conversation. However it unfolds, this is an invitation into presence, connection, and the beauty of the unseen. If these conversations find you, please subscribe, rate, and share so others can find their way here. Pour a cup of tea, settle in, and let's begin.

Ross Tayler (00:48)

Today on Sacred Sundays, our guest is Michael Sherlock. I first met Michael at a Fire and Bones workshop in Duncan back in 2012, which was a teen mentorship training program. Later, I reconnected with Michael when I did my initiation with the ManKind Project, and we've crossed paths ever since. More recently, I saw Michael at a welcome home ceremony for people who had gone through the same initiation I did back in 2014. And it just crossed my mind: hey, I'd love to have a conversation with Michael. I love the way Michael shows up in the world, with this elder energy, and it felt like it would be a great conversation. So Michael, welcome to Sacred Sundays.

Michael Sherlock (01:35)

Thank you very much indeed, Ross. Thanks for thinking of me and making this possible.

Ross Tayler (01:41)

You're very welcome. So let's start with the elder piece, because I would love to know how you feel about the role of being an elder, and why the role of an elder is important in our community at this time.

Michael Sherlock (01:57)

Okay, that's a big question to open with. Just like the guy next door starting up his Harley-Davidson as soon as we started recording.

The role of elder came to me through one of my mentors, a man called Manwoman, who is a well-known poet and elder from the Cranbrook area. He tapped me on the shoulder at one point, during one of the ManKind Project's New Warrior Training weekends, and said, have you ever thought about becoming a ritual elder and joining the elder team? And I hadn't. I was probably just about sixty by then. I guess I'd forgotten that I was sixty. Then I moved into being an elder with another mentor, a man called Noel McNaughton, who was a ritual elder in the ManKind Project, as was Manwoman. He walked me through a variety of different teachings, mostly during the weekends. And my third mentor, probably the one who was most active and most present, is Ipswa Meskakonis [?], a Cree and Celtic elder whom I've had as a friend. Maybe he was even at that boys to men, Fire and Bones training we were doing together.

Ross Tayler (03:29)

He was, yeah, he was there.

Michael Sherlock (03:31)

Yeah. I met him at a New Warrior Training Adventure as well, and we've been pretty close friends ever since. So with those mentors walking me into the idea that there is a thing called eldership, and also being a father of four girls and a grandfather of five granddaughters, and still hanging out with quite a lot of younger people, I've stepped more and more into the role of an elder.

And what exactly that is, hmm, that's not such an easy question. One of the things I'm learning as an elder is to step back and let the younger people step forward, and just hold that space while they go through it. You mentioned the lodge, and my experiences with the lodge teams and with an inipi [?]. My general way of being is to leap in there, pick up the axe, chop up the kindling, build things and rush around. And now I'm not moving quite as fast. I'm really starting to see the benefit of sitting back and just watching how the younger men and women are doing it. It's actually such a pleasure to see them learn.

For instance, one of the first teachings I got around the lodge was the doo-be-doo dance. In other words, if I'm too busy doing, and I don't know why I'm being, if I don't know why I'm chopping up the kindling and I'm just chopping it to get it done, get 'er done, get 'er done, I don't think that's the energy I want in the kindling that's going to be in a sacred fire. I want each piece of kindling to have an intention, to be chopped with the intention of each little piece being part of this whole sacred ritual. And I see myself as one of those pieces of kindling too, just being part of the sacred ritual, being prepared, preparing myself, and allowing nature, the trees and the sky and the fire and the water, to prepare me. So I don't know if I got any closer to answering the question of what it is to be an elder, but that's where the question has led me so far.

Ross Tayler (05:58)

I love that. It makes me think of a few things. I'll start with this: did you have resistance to the idea of stepping into being a ritual elder?

Michael Sherlock (06:08)

I think the first part of it was surprise that I would actually be considered. To become a ritual elder in the ManKind Project, we sit on a sort of hot seat, and the leader body and other elders and members of the lodge teams ask questions. The first time I sat, I got what we call a not now. In other words, I wasn't ready. And I wasn't, because one of the co-leaders asked me, when I'm starting to feel that I need some support, how's that going to look for you? How are you going to be able to give me that without interrupting what's going on, or making some kind of speech, or grandstanding? How are you going to support me in that situation? And I thought, whoa, is that ever a good question. I didn't really have an answer. So when they said, not now, I went, you're right, not now is the answer for me.

So I gradually stepped into it. I think there was not so much resistance, but I saw examples. Manwoman, Ipswa, Noel, and a number of other elders I had as mentors as I grew up. I was very lucky to have older men I worked with, and they gave me examples of what it is to hold that elder space, and just let the young people rush forward and do what they need to do, and not have to correct, or teach, or have wisdom, or have an identity as an elder. Just to be able to hold that space. And I'm still working on how to do that.

Ross Tayler (07:53)

It's fascinating, because before you said that last part, I would have thought that bringing wisdom and perspective in support was a big piece of it. And you're really saying, stand back and hold the space, which is just as powerful, I think, if not more.

Michael Sherlock (08:13)

Yeah. From the experiences I've had in Indigenous culture, I believe an elder is a person people come to. An elder is not a person who comes to somebody else. Elder is a position I don't ever really recognize in myself. If I am not recognized by the community as an elder, then I'm not. It's not a title I would give myself. The community is going to come to me and say, we want you to be holding this space, and in that case I would obviously say yes. But it's not like, I'm going to be an elder, therefore you have to give me some kind of special position or anything like that.

Ross Tayler (08:50)

Right. And that's exactly why I reached out to you: because of the space you hold, the energy you bring, and my experience of you over the years.

Michael Sherlock (09:03)

Well, thank you. Thank you.

Ross Tayler (09:05)

You're welcome. And I just want to step back, because not everyone listening might know what a lodge is. Could you explain it a little for someone who's never heard the term?

Michael Sherlock (09:17)

Sure. That opens up a large topic of conversation, from the Indigenous teachings I've had. The ManKind Project used to have a lodge as part of one of the ceremonies in the New Warrior Training Adventure weekend, and it has been decided that it will no longer be part of the weekend, because of concerns about appropriation of Indigenous culture. My teachings first came through the ManKind Project, but from an Indigenous teacher, Ipswa. He was my teacher. So I came to it from a place I felt was a good place, not a place of appropriation.

The lodge ceremony is a purification ritual, which I believe men really need to have in their lives to reconnect with the sacred. Women have their natural purification cycle every month, and that's a blessing for them. But men don't have that. So there's this ceremony where we build a round, dome-like structure, usually of bent willow branches, and cover it with blankets and other materials to make it completely dark and able to hold in the steam. While we're building the lodge, we start a fire, and in the fire we put a number of special rocks, a lava-type rock, so they don't explode. They hold the heat and become red hot. We often refer to them as grandfathers. Then, using a fork, we pick them out of the fire and put them in a pit in the centre of the lodge, the dome structure we built.

The fire represents the sun. Between the fire and the lodge, there's a mound, usually made from the dirt that's dug out of the centre of the lodge to form the pit into which the grandfathers are placed, and that represents the sacred feminine, the moon. The pit represents the earth. And the lodge itself, and the darkness, represent the womb, the sacred feminine, and the darkness of purification. We move into it with a person who has been trained to be what we call a water pourer, which means they sprinkle water on the red-hot rocks. The rocks are brought in, the people come into the lodge and close the door, water is sprinkled on the rocks, and a huge amount of steam comes up. Herbs and medicines are often used as well. Cedar, sage, tobacco and sweetgrass are four very common ones, used in the four different rounds.

And then, from my perspective and my teachings, it's a question of intentionally suffering. In my regular life, I might walk around inflicting unintentional suffering on myself, because I'm telling myself stories, or making up stories about other people, or about what's going on in the world. There's a lot of unintentional suffering. So I go in there and suffer intentionally, to make sure I'm going to meet the visions and the prayers and the songs, and the connection with the sacred and with the spiritual world, as led by the prayers and teachings of the water pourer. I'm authorized to pour water in a limited capacity within our local community, and we have a lodge at the property my partner and I live on in Fanny Bay. We do that all through the winter. Often Ipswa will pour, when we can get him, and when we can't, I pour. So that's what a lodge, or an inipi [?] ceremony, would be.

There's just one more piece I feel obliged to share, and that's the teaching that there are some very different schools of thought in the Indigenous community, particularly in communities that are very strong in this tradition, such as the Lakota. On one side, there's the belief that if non-Native people are ever going to understand the sacredness of the ceremony, the only way they'll be able to understand it is to participate in it. And the other belief I've been taught, which is equally strong, is: why would the Indigenous community give such a sacred ceremony to the non-Indigenous community, when everything else they've given has been abused and taken and stolen and appropriated and commercialized? Why would they give away such a special ceremony? Those two camps both have very, very valid points of view, and I honour both of them.

Ross Tayler (14:23)

I think it's really important that you said that, because I listened to a podcast where a Lakota elder was talking about his beliefs on this, which were in the camp of sharing the teachings: even though the trauma had happened, it's important to heal with the same medicine and share that medicine. But I also see the other side of it. It's a really valid conversation.

Michael Sherlock (14:50)

Yeah. And the ceremonies I've been taught to pour for and participate in are a set of ceremonies called All Nations ceremonies. It's a particular ceremony that has been developed so that non-Indigenous people can be part of it. It does not include any of the completely sacred ceremonies of any Indigenous nation, which I believe should not be shared with anyone but their own members. Those are very special ceremonies, and I believe they should be kept entirely within the culture.

Ross Tayler (15:24)

It's interesting, because a couple of summers ago, I attended my first Sundance, and part of me felt like it wasn't my place to be there. I couldn't really articulate it, but I could really feel the sacredness of that particular ceremony. First of all, it was a real privilege and an honour to be there to witness it. But I had a feeling I haven't had when I've sat in the lodge. At that ceremony, I was like, I don't think I should be here. It was really interesting. Anything you would say about that?

Michael Sherlock (16:00)

Well, I've been offered the opportunity to walk the Sundance trail, and I felt it wasn't for me, partly because I felt it was just too onerous, physically, mentally and spiritually. So I haven't attended a Sundance ceremony. I've sat with a lot of people who are Sundancers, and I understand the incredibly sacred nature of it, and the amazing amount of preparation and discipline it takes to follow that road. So I really honour anybody who's done it. But I don't have an experience to share with you that's equal to your question.

Ross Tayler (16:35)

Yeah, fair enough. I want to double back to something you said as we began talking, which was that you're not moving quite as fast. I love that, because it's the theme that shows up most often in the conversations I have on this podcast. What have you learned by not going so fast?

Michael Sherlock (16:57)

I guess the short answer is that not so fast means more present. I can stay much more in the moment. My planner mind, my manager mind, is very often planning a couple of weeks or a couple of months ahead. I'm involved in Tribal Journeys with Ipswa, Grandpa, and we're always trying to get that off the ground: get our family organized, get the canoe ready and the boat ready, and all the details. Those are important parts of being in ceremony with such an important event. But I'm starting to realize that I'm missing the point if I'm not living it. It's back to the doo-be-doo dance again. If I'm not there with the intention, with the be part, if it's all do, and I'm just flying along to the next step... So moving slower is being more present, and being less caught up in my identity as an I, and more connected to the greater we, and to the greater lack of separation that I feel is, well, I know that's where I'm going to be going eventually.

Ross Tayler (18:13)

I'll echo that. For me, it's an ongoing teaching that I'm fascinated by. Literally a week ago, I had an energy session with somebody. The thing I say most to people, for different reasons, is that you have to go slow to go fast. And of course, the message I got in that healing session was that I need to slow down. I get it. I know I continue to slow down, but I need to slow down more. And I laugh, because apparently I need to hear it often, and I need to really live it more. I'm much more present than I've ever been, and yet I'm still not as present as I believe we can be.

Michael Sherlock (18:56)

Yeah, I second that. I was actually working in the kitchen at the last New Warrior Training weekend. I decided to do MOS, man of service, and getting up early in the mornings, I found I was a little dizzy, so I started to move much more slowly and much more intentionally. I realized I can only move as fast as the fluid in my inner ear can move. If I bend down to pick something up quickly and stand up again, my inner ear fluid just doesn't move that well, so I get dizzy. So I really started to move much more slowly, physically, because of that experience. At first I was worried, my goodness, something's wrong with me. But the blessing that came from it was: just slow down. Slow down, and just chop those vegetables. They'll get chopped just as well if you chop slowly as if you chop fast.

Ross Tayler (19:56)

Yeah, it's such an important lesson. And you mentioned it in the context of being present with the elements of the ceremony, honouring the elements of the ceremony. Otherwise that doing energy goes into the ceremony, and we don't want that.

Michael Sherlock (20:14)

Very much so. Really paying attention to the intentions of that ceremony, and any other ceremony. I follow the Red Road on that path, but I'm also very actively involved in a Sufi practice, which I'm finding very enriching as an elder practice and as a life practice. And oddly enough, wouldn't you know it, they're similar. These practices that come from thousands and thousands of years ago have similar wisdoms. It's quite beautiful.

Ross Tayler (20:49)

It is beautiful. And I love that you mentioned that, because recently I stumbled across something from Vancouver, from the Squamish Nation. It was a young woman who had just gotten back from, I think, either Japan or Korea. She went over there with her Indigenous teachings to experience ceremony in that country, and she was blown away, because what she saw was the exact same energetic traditions, expressed in a different way. She was like, wow, this is our ceremony. It's culturally different, but it's the same.

Michael Sherlock (21:29)

Yes, absolutely. So many of those sorts of ceremonies cross over. I don't know much about the Japanese or Korean traditions, but I'm learning more about the Islamic and Sufi path, and it's beautiful to see how they meld.

Ross Tayler (21:49)

And what would you say is important to share about the Sufi traditions and practices? What do you see as important?

Michael Sherlock (22:01)

Well, for me at the moment, what I'm learning is, first of all, presence: really being in the present moment, through silence and meditation. I'm not a very good meditator. I'm a very twitchy, active, sort of ADHD kind of person, so I find meditating an incredible discipline, and obviously worth practicing more.

Another part I'm learning a lot more about, which I alluded to before, is releasing any sense of identity, of the concept of myself. If I call myself a self, if I call myself I, that statement intrinsically separates me from the rest of the universe. And that separation, as opposed to holding that I am part of everything and everything is part of me, is something I'm really working on trying to understand. And then I realize that even when I say the word understand, it's not going to be something I can do with my mind. So it's letting that mind piece go and, again, I guess the only other word I could say is be, in the be, dropping into my heart and out of my head and out of trying to figure stuff out.

And the third part comes from the teachings of a new Sufi teacher I've just taken on, who's walking with me: to let go of knowing. To understand that it doesn't matter how much I read, or how many master's degrees I do, or how many ceremonies, or whatever. This concept that I have to accumulate more of this stuff in my head called knowing, and that's going to get me closer to the questions I'm asking about the divine and the greater universe and the mystery, dare I say the G word, God. It's not a head thing. It's innately a paradox, and so I've got to be comfortable knowing that it's okay not to know. So I'm working on those ideas as well: releasing identity, releasing knowing.

And again, as an elder, I feel it's really important for me to hold that space for younger people as they go through a world with these phones and all the information that comes flying at us, where it's all, you just have to know more, and then you'll be better informed, and knowledge is power. And maybe it's not. Maybe knowledge is confusion. So it's holding the space for that, allowing that to happen, and allowing myself to slip into that space of heart much more than head, so that I can step away from separation and be in the larger, capital B, Be, the capital S, Self, type of thing.

Ross Tayler (25:04)

The theme we keep weaving through is slowing down and being present. And when we're present, we get to see the messages that are trying to get our attention. There's a teaching I follow, or have been part of, that talks about the metaphorical car, and the fact that we're not meant to drive the car. Spirit drives the car. We're just meant to enjoy the ride from the back seat. That metaphor has been really powerful for me, because I'm often trying to drive the car of my life in a way where my mind is trying to run the show. And when I allow myself to get into the back seat, things flow quite effortlessly. So it's this interesting thing, but again, it's about slowing down and being present and listening to the signs and the guidance. I imagine that shows up in ceremony for you as well. If we're too much in our mind, we're not going to get the teaching.

Michael Sherlock (26:03)

Yes. And that's where, certainly in the lodge, with it being completely dark, and being present to the heat and so on, if my mind starts to focus on just, it's dark and it's hot, then sure, that's pretty obvious, but that's not where the messages are. And it's interesting that you use the metaphor of driving the car and allowing Spirit to drive, because I also have an Internal Family Systems therapy practice. I've trained as a level one IFS therapist.

Ross Tayler (26:37)

Amazing.

Michael Sherlock (26:38)

And I often use the metaphor of, who's driving the bus? Which of my internal parts is driving the bus? And again, I referred to the capital S Self, which is a concept used in Internal Family Systems to denote the part of me that can step back, step out of the mind and into the heart, and allow the parts of me that are maybe frantic, wrestling for the wheel of the bus or the car, to step back, and listen to them and hear what they have to say. Again, it's about being present, and understanding that they all have a valid point of view. They're all trying to help me in their own way. Sometimes they still think I'm eight years old or something, and they're trying to help me as an eight-year-old. Hence, when somebody says, you're behaving like a child, I go, okay, that's because that child is driving the bus. So maybe I should tap that child on the shoulder and say, you're too young to drive the bus. You can hardly see over the wheel, buddy, let alone know what's going down. And then sit him on my knee, have a conversation, be kind to him, and work from that point.

Dick Schwartz calls it the capital S Self. And what I really like about IFS is that it links very much into what we've been talking about. He acknowledges that there are spiritual guides that guided him to develop this model, and that they're very much part of the model as well. I can certainly feel the presence of those guides when I step into the lodge and ask them to show their presence, and allow me to step out of the way and become the hollow bone, as it's often described: just allowing Spirit to flow through me, so the I doesn't get in the way, the ego doesn't get in the way and start to confuse things, and one of those little kids doesn't grab the wheel of the bus and start to drive it during ceremony. Not a good idea. So it all links together for me.

Ross Tayler (28:47)

What you said reminds me of something I've observed, especially with my dad when he was suffering from dementia, before he passed: this idea that we are children in adult bodies. Sometimes we stay in that childlike phase, and other times we rise up from it and start to learn and grow. We're trying to be adults, but we're still children at heart. So allowing that joy and wonder to emerge is important as well. That's why I love the analogy of the child driving the bus, because you wouldn't want a child driving a bus. And yet there are children living as adults, driving the bus of their life. So it's a fascinating conversation, and it leads into what would be my next question, which is: why do you think it's important for men to explore men's work?

Michael Sherlock (29:44)

Well, I think first and foremost because we have been so enculturated into so many ideas of what being a man is, and there are so many unhealthy models out there. Last night I went to see the Mandalorian and Grogu movie, because a friend of mine invited me for his birthday. And I was watching it and thinking, wow, this movie has so many examples of unhealthy masculinity in it. Completely independent, never has to ask for help, always strong, always tough, and the answer to everything is more violence, and a fancier gun or a fancier hand grenade or something. I believe men are being raised through the media to be held in such a limited box, one that doesn't allow so many other aspects of men that are so beautiful.

The word patriarchy comes to mind. So many men are raised as victims of the patriarchy just as much as women are, because they're told this is how they have to behave in order to be accepted into a man's world. Clearly that's toxic, and clearly it's damaging for men, and it continues to damage society, because of that simplistic model. So I'm for men stepping into vulnerability, men stepping into emotional education, men stepping into the beauty and wonder of who they are, their imagination, their strength, their passion, their dynamism, for the good of the world. Not like at the end of the movie: let's just kill them all, let's just blow them all up. That's just another war movie. And so many young men have been sent to war. Where have all the flowers gone, you know? Sent to war to die for a needless cause, when there are so many other aspects of manhood that can be explored. So I have a lot of passion for bringing men into their full potential, their full beauty and the wonder, as you say, that we have. That would be the short answer.

Ross Tayler (32:19)

It's funny, because as much as I asked that question, it's something that's difficult to articulate fully. I've noticed that in my culture there's not a lot of initiation that happens organically, and that's why stepping into that weekend with the ManKind Project was my initiation. All I can say is that during my initiation, something transformed. There was an energetic shift. Something that was dormant in me woke up, and that part of me really changed the trajectory of where I was going, in a way I couldn't have imagined. We sometimes call it the wild man. We can call it warrior energy, but it's even bigger than that. It's not identifiable. It's like my spirit woke up. I've continued to learn and grow and struggle and have challenges, but from a very different place, and I'm so grateful for that initiation experience. Sometimes we're lucky enough to have experiences in our lives that act as an initiation, but often not, because we've lost connection with our fathers, and with where our fathers work. We used to work alongside our fathers, and that doesn't happen as often as it used to. There's this emptiness that I think men speak of, that can't be filled.

Michael Sherlock (33:43)

Yes. I would agree very much. And I think that often in non-traditional societies, particularly Western, Eurocentric societies, initiation has come from war. Unfortunately, it is an initiation, there's no doubt about it, and I certainly hold my hands up to the men who've had to be part of that world and managed to survive. I know a number of veterans and people who have been in that world. But there's a much more efficient, much more intentional, and much less violent way of initiating men.

When I went through the weekend in 2007, something hugely shifted in me too. What shifted for me was: I belong here. I belong in this. Not a belonging wrought from violence, or hazing, or separateness, or separating myself from other people, or making myself better than anyone. It's an atavistic belonging, the archetypal belonging of the wild man in me. And there's the connection, obviously, to Robert Bly's work.

Ross Tayler (35:03)

It really is unique. Around 2012, I was living in Duncan, and I was having, I didn't know it at the time, a hero's journey. It wasn't until afterwards that I put those dots together. I love telling this story. I was driving along in Duncan, looked up, and saw a sign on the side of a building that said, support for men. That was Grant Waldman, who was working for the West Coast Men's Support Society. My first connection with him was going into that office and introducing myself. And that was the pathway to a circle that was happening in Duncan, and to the workshop I spoke of at the beginning. I had no idea that men sat in circle that way, that they supported each other emotionally, from a heartfelt place, in such a practical way. I had no idea. It blew my mind. I just kept going back. And ultimately I started my own circle in Squamish when I got back there. It's hard to convey, because there's a lot of fear around stepping toward a circle, because of how vulnerable it is. And yet the moment you realize that this isn't hazing, and it isn't a repeat of what you've experienced, and it actually is supportive, again, it's hard to articulate the power of that.

Michael Sherlock (36:23)

Yes, absolutely. I recently came across an article written by a woman who wrote a book about this, around 2005 or 2006. The book was called Self-Made Man. She was a lesbian who decided she wanted to understand this concept of patriarchy, so she dressed up as a man, got acting lessons and speaking lessons and so on, and lived as a man for eighteen months. Contrary to what she was looking for, which I believe was proof that men are all ganging up against women, what she found was that men are raised to completely isolate each other, to put each other down, to not support each other, to separate from each other. To the point that after this experience, she ended up being suicidal. She was so traumatized by it. I've got the book on my Audible feed, though I haven't listened to it yet. I read this article, and I'm probably not doing her proper justice by referring to it.

But I do have the experience of growing up in a society where every move you make, the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you look, the way you dress, was always an opportunity for somebody else in male society to put me down, call me on it, or fight me for it. I know many men who have expressed concerns about sitting in a circle with other men, because they don't feel comfortable with other men. Because male society is engineered culturally so that men don't get together, unless it's the old boys' club and the hazing and all that kind of stuff, the in-group and the out-group and the patriarchy. So sitting in circle with new rules, really feeling belonging, really feeling valued, really allowing that vulnerability and taking the risk to do that, has certainly enriched my life hugely. I hate to think where I would have been if I hadn't had that experience.

Ross Tayler (38:33)

And just by showing up every week, or as often as you can, it changes you. You don't have to do anything. Just showing up, witnessing, and hearing the stories changes you on such a deep level.

Michael Sherlock (38:50)

Yeah. And hearing men who have taken that step to sit in the circle, and then build the trust, and then open up. I'm amazed at how much suffering there is, even just in the day to day, that men carry, whether self-inflicted or inflicted by others or society, or just the harshness of, I'm not a man because I can't earn enough money to look after my family properly. How hard they are on themselves just because of that. In the economic times we live in now, that's a pretty hard row to hoe.

I'm glad I can sit in a circle and hold space. I sit in the Kings of Heart men's circle in the Courtenay and Royston area every week and hold the space of an elder, which mostly means doing very, very little. I'm trying to step back more and more from being active, because again, it's me stepping back and allowing the younger men, who are picking up all sorts of skills and ways to facilitate and support each other, to hold each other up and celebrate, and to provide a place where men who are really hurting can come and find trust and solace.

Ross Tayler (40:09)

It's such important work.

Michael Sherlock (40:15)

Yeah. Huge.

Ross Tayler (40:17)

This feels like the choice point of either continuing or pausing, and I feel like it's the place to pause and allow people to digest everything we've shared. I just want to end with the question I always ask every guest, which is: what's one simple way that someone could connect with the sacred today?

Michael Sherlock (40:38)

Well, I know what my partner would say, and that would be to take a deep breath. Just breathe in the sacred, because that is the connection with all of the world out there, all the trees and animals and plants, all those molecules and atoms out there coming into my body. And then breathe out that light, my divine light, out into the world. Just be aware of that breath, and really hold it as a sacred act. Because as soon as it stops, the sacred doesn't stop, but life certainly does. So there's a connection there. That's my quick answer.

Ross Tayler (41:26)

Thank you for that, Michael. I really appreciate that answer. And I appreciate you taking the time to share your energy around being, and reflecting that to us, and reflecting the challenges that can come from trying to be that in the world, and from slowing down and being more present. As I said, that's something I struggle with, and it's something I've experienced in your essence over the years. I really appreciate the work you do and the way you show up, and thank you for sharing this conversation with me today.

Michael Sherlock (42:01)

It's been my pleasure. I hope that if anything I've said today helps somebody get through a hard time, or connect a little bit to the sacred and understand the sacred beauty and divineness that is in them, then it's definitely been worth my time. That's my pleasure. Thanks, Ross, for making this possible.

Ross Tayler (42:22)

You're very welcome.

Ross Tayler (42:23)

Thank you for joining us on Sacred Sundays. I hope something in today's offering spoke to your spirit, stirred something true, or simply gave you a moment to breathe. If this conversation resonated, please subscribe, rate, or share. It truly helps this work reach the people who are meant to find it. If you'd like to step inside my world a little further, I host a free live practice three mornings a week called Start With You. Just 20 minutes on Zoom to return to your own energy. Everything you need can be found at the link in the show notes. Until next time, may your day be slow and sacred.