Jude Wong: The Way of Council

Ross Tayler (00:00)

Hello, I'm Ross Tayler, your host and guide for Sacred Sundays, a space to slow down, tune in, and return to what's sacred within and around you. I'm also a life coach for empaths and sensitive souls, walking alongside those who are ready to come home to who they actually are. These conversations are part of fulfilling that purpose, a collective exploration of what it means to live in connection with the sacred. Some weeks you'll hear a sound-based offering to open the space. Other times we'll simply begin in conversation. However it unfolds, this is an invitation into presence, connection, and the beauty of the unseen. If these conversations find you, please subscribe, rate, and share so others can find their way here. Pour a cup of tea, settle in, and let's begin.

Ross Tayler (00:48)

Today on Sacred Sundays, our guest is Jude Wong. Jude is a therapist and somatic facilitator who has practiced clinical counselling, integrated hypnotherapy, EMDR, parts work and age regression in private practice with individuals and relationships since 2021. Her background includes 15 years of apprenticeship with her own personal and systemic injuries, as well as witnessing and companioning hundreds of others in the process of healing, in a variety of experiential, intersectional, cultural and educational settings. She works clinically, intuitively, somatically and spiritually, holding space for what most wants to be seen, integrated or transformed in each session, in the language and context of each person. At the core of her practice is a deep appreciation for personal and collective healing, the immense wisdom of the body, visual or dream states, and the phenomenon of intentional, co-created presence. Welcome to Sacred Sundays.

Jude Wong (01:52)

Thanks, Ross. So glad to be here.

Ross Tayler (01:55)

You and I have crossed paths at a place where we both share space, and we've had some quite organic conversations. Eventually I was like, hey, we should have this conversation on the podcast. And here we are.

Jude Wong (02:07)

Yeah, and I had no idea that you'd been doing this, that you'd been talking to people about sacred space, and what we do.

Ross Tayler (02:20)

Absolutely. So Jude, you're going to begin by introducing a practice called the Way of Council, as a way to enter our conversation. I'll hand it over to you to begin, and we'll go from there.

Jude Wong (02:36)

Sounds good. The Way of Council has been with me, influencing my way of being and my practice, since around 2009. It's a synergy of Indigenous practices for coming together in meaningful ways, and it's often described as speaking and listening from the heart. If you want to know more, there's a book on it called The Way of Council, by Virginia Coyle and Jack Zimmerman. They don't credit themselves with creating this practice. They credit Indigenous peoples all over the world, and they created it in consultation with, and with permission from, those Indigenous peoples. That feels important to say.

The focus of your podcast really got my mind thinking and pondering this question: what is sacred space? So before I take us into a sacred space, I'll say a few words about what sacred space is to me, just to prime our nervous systems and our linguistic systems for what this space is all about.

The first thing that came to mind was that sacred space allows us to access information and wisdom beyond the mind alone, beyond what we know consciously. Whether we're accessing the wisdom of the body or the dream state, there are many, many practices that support us in accessing that information. Whether it's breathwork or hypnotherapy, or a lot of spiritual practices, they're all inviting us to slow down the pace of the mind and the speed of processing. And given our ever-quickening world, that becomes more and more profound.

Beyond the mind, another term that has been with me for quite some time is liminal. I would describe sacred space as a liminal space: between conscious and unconscious, between the seen and the unseen, or even between sleeping and waking. That's where I work in hypnotherapy. The state of hypnosis is between sleeping and waking.

Another term I could use is kairos, the concept of kairos versus chronos time. These are Greek terms, by the way, from the Greek philosophers. Chronos is chronological, linear time. Kairos is the time of the dream state. It's the time of ceremony. It's a state where a minute can feel like an hour and an hour can feel like a minute, where there can be a distortion of linear time.

And the last term that came to me was phenomenological, which describes the things we sometimes see in the dream state or the liminal state: symbols that only we could recognize as symbols. They're very personal and authentic to us. That strikes me as very central to sacred space, to what is sacred. Those symbols in our day that become themes, and we start to see them everywhere. The universe can really work on us that way, constantly reminding us of new pathways.

Ross Tayler (06:40)

I love that.

Jude Wong (06:41)

So with all that said, perhaps later in the podcast I look forward to hearing what sacred space is to you, Ross. But let's come in first. I'm going to light the candle I have here, and I'll invite you to do the same in a moment. As I light the candle, I'm going to dedicate this space and time. Dedications are part of the Way of Council. We can dedicate to world themes, to people we're thinking of, to concepts we're working on within ourselves. In this context, I feel like dedicating it to all the inner healers throughout the world who are doing our own work, so that we can companion the work of others. Lighting up that flame, defining this space. And as you light your candle, Ross, I'll invite you: do you have a dedication? What would you like to dedicate this time and space to as we come together?

Ross Tayler (07:57)

In the spirit of this podcast, I dedicate this space to those who might be new to the idea of sacred space, or new to some of the concepts you shared at the beginning, so that they become curious about what it means and how they can bring it into their everyday lives.

Jude Wong (08:21)

Thank you. So I'm going to take us into a bit of a visualization, to help us land in this intentional space we're creating. I invite you to close your eyes or soften your gaze, and just begin by noticing any little adjustments your body needs right now in order to become more comfortable. Even the really, really subtle ones. Shifting the weight of the tailbone forward or backward. Allowing the feet to relax into the floor beneath you.

And then I'll invite you to imagine all of your cells settling, nuzzling, nestling into each other, and becoming a little heavier, into the container of your skin and the surface beneath you. And just notice the moment of moving from motion into stillness. Notice that transition.

In this place, we can notice how the heart is beating in this moment as we arrive. Just notice it, without needing to change anything. We can notice how the breath is flowing in this body today, whether it's high in the chest or low in the belly. And again, not needing to change a thing. You might even begin to hear the sound of your breath, as if you were inside your body. The sound of the air moving through all those corridors and passageways. Hearing the inhale, and hearing the exhale.

And with each exhale, I invite you to soften. The bones, the muscles, the organs. As much as it feels comfortable, soften all those things, and release any layers of protection and armouring you might have been carrying in the outside world today.

And finally, you can invite the heart, that big, magnificent muscle right in your chest, to soften. See that heart expanding with the inhale, and returning to its resting state and size on the exhale. Just connecting the heart with the breath. Just noticing this internal state, this internal space, and what it feels like to occupy it. The breath, the heartbeat, the movement of the organs. And notice how these things continue without you having to think about them. This internal space is absolutely steadfast, no matter what is happening on the outside.

And whenever you're ready, when you feel complete, I invite you to open your eyes. You might keep a nice, soft focus. Welcome.

Ross Tayler (14:49)

Thank you.

Jude Wong (14:50)

So to begin, what might our first prompt be, Ross? It might just be speaking to anything you noticed or experienced during the visualization, or anything that has been spoken so far.

Ross Tayler (15:12)

Yeah. As I was dropping into that space and breathing into my belly, I noticed a little sharp pain in my belly. I was drawn to bring my hand down to that space and just bring energy to it, and it dissipated over time, and now it's gone. It was interesting to have that experience and notice it. And then I really felt the dropping into the heart, that space opening up at the invitation, which felt really nourishing and supportive as a way to enter this conversation. What about yourself? What did you notice and feel as you were guiding us into that?

Jude Wong (16:01)

So if we were in council, you would be passing a talking piece to me right now, if you feel complete with what you've shared. So I may just inject pieces of council into this conversation.

Ross Tayler (16:14)

Sure.

Jude Wong (16:14)

Part of the magic of council is speaking uninterrupted and unplanned, just speaking to what's most alive in us in the moment. So, what did I notice? What do I notice, coming into our space today? I noticed that I came in with my heart racing. I was a little nervous. And it was really profound, even though I do that exercise often, with almost every client who comes in, to experience it again for the first time, and to notice how at the end, my heartbeat had completely slowed down. I felt a sense of relief. I feel a sense of relief arriving into this space, every single time.

So I might put down the talking piece now, and we might come into another topic to share on, out of the many. There's one coming to me right now: what is your relationship with sacred space, and how is it influencing and dancing with your practice right now?

Ross Tayler (17:41)

That's a great question. I guess it's multilevelled. The biggest thing I'm appreciating in this moment is slowing down. For listeners who listen to this podcast a lot, that's a theme that shows up with many of the guests, this concept of slowing down. A few weeks ago, I actually had an elder on, and that was one of the main messages he spoke of throughout our conversation. So it's been on my mind.

When I think of your question, I think about how busy my week is at times, and how I'm doing things to keep everything in motion. Recently I've gone through a bit of change, and a lot of my practice hasn't fallen away, it just looks different. I'm walking and connecting with nature and trying to slow down. But in terms of formal practice, I've sort of lost the connection to that recently, and I realize that in this moment. Normally, though, I start my day by connecting to myself, meditating and having space in my morning. That's the biggest thing: having space to really root and ground myself and connect to whatever it might be that day. It can change based on what I'm feeling.

Over the years I've done things like shamanic journeying and different groups. I do men's groups, and there's always an intentional way of opening the space in the men's groups. So it looks different depending on what I'm doing, and depending on the season I'm in. But there's always some sort of practice, even something as small as lighting some smudge before a session, or burning incense during a session, like I am right now. Even though those are small touch points, they really help. Sometimes I'll have a crystal in my hand. Yesterday I was walking on the beach and found a piece of beach glass. It can be such simple things, and they can be profound. They're also the things that surround me, my anchors, I guess you could say. So there are a lot of pieces to the puzzle. And I will lay down my talking stick.

Jude Wong (20:14)

And I will receive your talking piece. I'm using a clock on this end, because it happens to be what's around me.

So, liminal space and my practice. I first experienced liminal space in a creative process I mentioned to you in our pre-podcast dialogue, called the [Arrivals?] Personal Legacy Project. It was my first experience of many things. It was my first experience of listening on a deeper level: listening to the body and how it wanted to move, in which direction, the objects I was drawn to. And it was my first experience of group process, and the medicine of shared group presence. What unfolds is often something no one individual could possibly have conceived of on their own. And gosh, that just lit such a fire in me. So that was really my first experience of the sacred, a sense of that wisdom and knowingness that's accessible beyond what the mind consciously knows. It was my first experience of going, wow, there's really something more than the confines of just me and my brain. Sensory awareness, sensory listening.

And then I came into the Way of Council. I came into it as a client. There was a psychiatrist and a Way of Council facilitator who worked together, and I was one of their clients. So I met in council every two weeks, for about four years, with a dedicated group of other humans seeking transformation, seeking a way to be more at ease in the world and in ourselves. That was another deepening for me of the group phenomenon.

At around the same time, I was also experiencing 12-step groups. This was about 10 to 15 years ago. I attended Co-Dependents Anonymous, and a group called Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families. That was another group space where I got to witness the phenomenon that happens when we share, especially when we share from an intentional place, when we come together in an intentional way. So often I would hear the words I needed to hear from another person. Or I would receive feedback that I had spoken the words another person needed to hear. That definitely contributed to this fire of inspiration in me. I found it so inspiring that we have that capacity as humans, to create that medicine for ourselves and each other, and to feel so deeply connected at the same time.

Around the same time, a whole bunch of different practices started flowing into my life, all around this theme of liminal space. I experienced heart-centred hypnotherapy as a client, which was another way of accessing that liminal, sacred space, in the context of this conversation, within myself and beyond. I experienced the way our subconscious guides us in what we see and what we feel in our bodies. It might not make sense in the moment, but it always makes sense eventually, often very deep and profound sense, whether it's five minutes later, or the next day, or even several months afterwards. Oh my gosh, that's why I saw this image. That's what that was all about.

And somewhere in all of that, I also came into a practice called systemic family constellations work. My sense is that a lot of your listeners may be familiar with it. It's another way of coming into what that practice calls the field, or the knowing field. It's a community healing practice. We select people to represent members of our family, or aspects or parts of ourselves, and we have those representatives stand in the space. As a representative, what you're doing is sensing: do I feel like turning toward or away from this other person, or these other people? What's in my body? Do I want to look up or down, move closer or farther away? And those simple guideposts really guide a constellation into a sense of resolution. So it was another practice that uses group presence to access information beyond our conscious knowing, to provide insight, guidance and resolution.

So here I am today, holding space for individuals and relationships. I use the candle to define the therapeutic space, and to help us make the transition from the outside world to the inside world, to that deeper way of listening. And to help remind us to slow down. Step one is slow down. I absolutely resonate with that, and I love that it's been a theme that comes up in your podcast. I feel hope when I hear that. Thank goodness more and more people are discovering the wisdom that's available when we slow down, whether it's with ourselves or with another. That feels complete for now, so I'm going to pass our talking piece through the ether, and just invite you to respond with what comes up in you as you've been listening.

Ross Tayler (27:48)

Yeah. What's coming up for me is that I've had a variation of this experience. There are groups out there that call themselves conscious relating groups, and they sometimes do something called T-group. I can't remember what the T stands for, but the bottom line is that it's a practice of sharing from present-moment awareness, noticing what we're feeling in our bodies, noticing what is rising in the moment, rather than coming from the mind. And one of the things I'm appreciating right now is the subtlety of surrendering to the space, instead of holding a role in this conversation. I'm enjoying the feeling of being in my body, instead of thinking my way to what's next.

When I engaged with conscious relating years ago, I was still living in Squamish, and it was quite a challenge to get out of my head and really feel what was going on. It was a challenge for many of the participants as well. And yet everything gets created in the present moment, and it's so powerful to come from that place. What am I feeling? What's moving within me? What wants to be said? What am I drawn to? So I'm really appreciating this experience, and the potential that other people will witness it and maybe become curious, and wonder where they can learn more, or bring it into their every day.

Because, as you said, slowing down... I'm definitely way slower than I've ever been in my life, but I still move quickly. I'm designed to move quickly. I can have multiple things on the go. But what I've learned is that the quicker I move, the more I end up making mistakes and redoing things, or not noticing what somebody is saying, misunderstanding someone, not feeling what's underneath what someone is saying. And that's the beauty of coming into this space: you listen at a different level.

When I did my coach training, they talked about three levels of listening. There's actually a fourth, which goes even deeper. But the third is really listening to the space. What is the space saying? What are you hearing on the outside? So that training taught me this as well. What are the words that aren't being spoken? What's the impact on the space if someone comes through the door, or slams a door, or a loud car passes by? And it's proven in studies of the nervous system that our bodies are always sensing our space. We just might not be connected to it. So this experience is about dropping into the part of us that's aware of what's going on. It's subtle. It's a whisper. And that's where our true wisdom lies, in that liminal space you're referring to, in that open space. We can tap into something different there than we can from our minds. So I feel complete with that, and I'll hand the talking stick back to you.

Jude Wong (31:11)

As I was listening to you share, I became aware that my brain is a little bit heady right now. I think it's because I'm so excited to embody this space with you, so there's a part of my nervous system that's getting a little revved up. And that's okay. That's great. So I embrace that.

I also had a response when you were talking about slowing down, when you said you're moving through life in a much slower way than you used to. It reminded me of my own epic journey with slowing down. Maybe it's an epic journey we're all on right now. There's a sigh in me when I think of slowing down in my own life. Before I came into all of this work, I was an arts producer, and I have identified as a workaholic before. I've dipped my toe into that identity. Just how fast I was moving on a daily basis, and how much pressure I felt every day. And it eventually did really bring me down. Essentially, I had a bit of a nervous breakdown around 34 or 35, because my nervous system couldn't sustain all that pressure, all that speed, all that multitasking, so much drive, drive, drive. So really, my whole healing journey was about slowing down. No wonder this is essentially what I facilitate with others: this space of slowing down.

It's been quite a process. I also move much more slowly through life than I would say most people do. I have fewer hours of productivity in my day than a lot of other people. I work with the concept of spoons: we come into each day with a certain number of spoons, of attention and energy, available to us. So I'm rationing spoons. I'm regulating myself by going, okay, no, that's going to be too much. And sometimes there's a sense of missing out, because of my need to move so much more slowly than I did before I came into healing. So it's had a profound effect on my life. It's really become what my life is about, among many other things. So thanks for opening up the topic and allowing me to share about it and reflect on it, and to share that part of myself with you too. Sometimes it gets clouded in some shame, and I don't talk about it a lot. But slowness has been a profound thing in my life.

I also wanted to respond to the idea of relating to the space, which I deeply appreciate. In that silent place we started out in, I often invite people to feel into the space around them and just notice its willingness, the willingness of the space to hold us in whatever needs to unfold. And there's something about doing that in silence. It's the silence that allows us to connect with the space in that way. So yes, that's another element of deeper listening, and another outcome of slowing down: being able to hear the space. Here, here.

Ross Tayler (35:41)

Thank you. I think what's rising up in me, hearing what you shared, first of all, is thank you. I appreciate the depth of what you shared, and the openness of sharing a piece you haven't often voiced, about slowing down. So many things are popping up. One is my own moment, years ago, working at Starbucks heading into the holidays, touching the front door to go into work and realizing, I can't do this anymore. I've shared it before on the podcast. That moment of honouring that was the beginning of slowing down, in a way that was, as the doctor said, if you don't, you're going to end up having a heart attack or something.

And now, I recently took a part-time job three days a week. It started out as 10 to 3, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and it was perfect. I still had my mornings, I still had space, I still had some time in the afternoon, and I had my evenings. Then they asked me if I would start an hour earlier, and I said yes, because it felt like the right thing to do, and it felt aligned. But losing that hour has been a bit of a challenge. I notice myself going quicker to compensate for that hour. It's fascinating. There's almost a sense of loss, and a, yeah, in a perfect world I wouldn't have to make that choice. It comes down to paying the bills, right, and all the responsibilities and things we carry. And at the same time, I feel deep gratitude that I have the choice to still have space in my week, compared to what others have to do. So I'm very grateful for that.

And the other piece: just as you mentioned feeling like you were in your head, I was like, wow, I just feel really free in this space, enjoying the quality of how time is passing. It's so interesting to allow myself to be in that, even though I know this space. I've felt it before. It is our birthright to go this slowly, and to be this present, without distraction. And it makes me think that way, way back, that's just the way it was. There wasn't as much noise or distraction, or notifications. Even with communication, I think I have probably seven different ways people can reach out to me, and sometimes they all go off at the same time. It's wild. How did we get here? And each of those is a byproduct of a company trying to hold our attention somewhere. Message through Facebook, message through Instagram. It's too much. There are times when it feels overwhelming and I don't want to respond, and yet there's this urge to. So I've gotten way better at not responding immediately, sometimes waiting until the next day or even longer, and learning that it's actually okay. People are actually fine with that, because they're busy too.

So that's what's rising up for me in the moment. I'm also noticing that our time together is coming very close to an end, and that blows my mind, because it's gone very quickly, and at the same time it's felt so expansive and relaxing. So thank you for creating that space, and I'll pass the talking stick back to you.

Jude Wong (40:03)

Yeah, it feels like this topic of slowing down is really what has landed in our space together. I feel a lot of juice around it. And it came up the other day in a session with someone too. I find themes run through all of my sessions sometimes.

And in a little bit of closing, something you said about having to slow down for medical reasons... I can't remember exactly what your words were, but that's what I felt. I wasn't slowing down. I was going too fast every day, pushing my nervous system to the max, and the universe had to do something to stop me. And I feel like that's what happens. That's what I've seen, and what I've experienced, in myself and in others. If we don't listen to the voice that says, like you said, this is too much, the body will find its own way of slowing us down, whether it's through mental and emotional issues, or an autoimmune disease, or fibromyalgia, or chronic fatigue. So in my heart, there's just a big hear, hear. And a lot of love to all of us in that process of finding our innate rhythm and our innate equilibrium, which brings out the very best of what we have to offer ourselves and the world.

I have a closing prayer that I've used in a few different groups. It evolved through many, many different group experiences of mine, and this is its current form.

May all our circles continue to grow, infinitely and abundantly, to include ourselves, each other, all living beings, and all life itself. May each of us find our voice, and the courage to speak it and live it. And may no single being be forgotten or excluded from this movement. Slowly our circles grow. We grieve, release, and expand our inner space. We are deepened, enriched, and transformed. And so the world is changed, one person at a time.

Ross Tayler (43:11)

Love that. Thank you.

Jude Wong (43:14)

I wanted to say hey ahoa at the end of that. Hey ahoa, to me, means my ancestors greet your ancestors. It's a term that came to me, so it's not from a particular language.

Ross Tayler (43:29)

Okay. I really appreciated that closing, because it spoke to so many experiences I've also lived and witnessed, and it's what drives me in the work I do as well, in the ways you honoured in that closing. So I'm grateful for that.

Jude Wong (43:50)

Yeah, it's been great to occupy this space with you, and to connect and resonate. It's really nice for me to resonate with other fellow souls and facilitators. Thanks for doing what you do.

Ross Tayler (44:09)

You're welcome. I'm so glad to have had this unique conversation, compared to what usually happens on the podcast. It felt like a really good experience to have, and I appreciate the time, and I'm grateful to have had you on the podcast for this conversation, in this way.

Jude Wong (44:28)

So thank you. And let's blow out our candles, and release the space, and release ourselves into the rest of the day. And may our time together continue to serve us well, and in a positive way, as we move ahead.

Ross Tayler (44:50)

Beautiful. Thank you.

Ross Tayler (44:53)

Thank you for joining us on Sacred Sundays. I hope something in today's offering spoke to your spirit, stirred something true, or simply gave you a moment to breathe. If this conversation resonated, please subscribe, rate, or share. It truly helps this work reach the people who are meant to find it. If you'd like to step inside my world a little further, I host a free live practice three mornings a week called Start With You. Just 20 minutes on Zoom to return to your own energy. Everything you need can be found at the link in the show notes. Until next time, may your day be slow and sacred.