jeff thompson: Let Love Loose

Ross Tayler (00:00)

Hello, I'm Ross Tayler, your host and guide for Sacred Sundays, a space to slow down, tune in, and return to what's sacred within and around you. I'm also a life coach for empaths and sensitive souls, walking alongside those who are ready to come home to who they actually are. These conversations are part of fulfilling that purpose, a collective exploration of what it means to live in connection with the sacred. Some weeks you'll hear a sound-based offering to open the space. Other times we'll simply begin in conversation. However it unfolds, this is an invitation into presence, connection, and the beauty of the unseen. If these conversations find you, please subscribe, rate, and share so others can find their way here. Pour a cup of tea, settle in, and let's begin.

Ross Tayler (00:48)

Today on Sacred Sundays, our guest is jeff thompson. jeff is someone who has moved around a lot, physically and in every other sense too. And he isn't particularly attached to what his history might suggest about him. What jeff is attached to is creativity beyond what's ever been imagined, collective expansion in the face of fear, and what might actually happen if we let love loose.

That's jeff's bio, and I think that tells you all you need to know. I'll just add that I was trying to figure out when we met, but it's a little bit obscure, because I think I first met you when I was working at Starbucks and you would come in for morning coffee. Outside of that, I think it was maybe the end of 2015 when I found myself working at the wellness centre that you worked at as well. And I've known you since then, for sure. So welcome, glad to have you for this conversation.

jeff thompson (01:44)

Yeah, thanks for the intro, and for your openness to chat about whatever, and wherever this leads us. I think it's playful to think, when did we meet each other? When will we meet each other in the future? Just boundless history and potential.

Ross Tayler (02:07)

Absolutely. In the context of our working together, you were the clinical director at the wellness centre, and I started out as support staff, and I think I was there for about six years. I have to say that my interactions with you, and being guided by you, were hugely beneficial in shaping the way I work. I think I quote you often in my work. There are things you have said over the years that are so potent and helpful, so there are these jeff quotables that I have continued to share. I'm grateful for that experience, and grateful for the depth of sensitivity I developed working with you and everyone else at that centre.

jeff thompson (02:58)

That's kind and unexpected, but appreciated. My inner part is kind of giggling at the idea that I'm sure I get credited with saying great stuff I've never said. I welcome that, because then I'll just say I inspired it in some fashion. And I'm sure things get passed around. So, like we were talking about, wherever that flow started, it didn't really start with me necessarily. But that whole vessel thing, I'm a big believer in the idea that we don't really create. We just allow it, so that it flows through us. I'm happy to be a conduit of useful things sometimes.

Ross Tayler (03:55)

I appreciate that, and I agree that the origin of things probably isn't just us. It's a culmination of things. Either way, it's helpful wisdom, and I appreciate that.

jeff thompson (04:10)

Yeah, thanks. I've been playing with the idea that although we're all connected, we are all unique. So even if something was flowing through a particular artist, say a mentor of mine, Dorothy Satten [?], a psychodramatist, something may come through in how she held herself. But a gesture I might make is not necessarily hers. It's touched with all our uniqueness, in the way you might see it or convey it. Everybody has a brush on the painting.

Ross Tayler (04:53)

We all co-create it, for sure.

jeff thompson (04:56)

That's what I'm trying to say.

Ross Tayler (05:00)

And so jeff, you had shared a quote that some of us may have heard before and some of us maybe haven't, as a conversation starter or something to reflect on together. It's a quote by Rumi, and it goes like this: Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there. I'm curious, what was it that made you pull on that quote and bring it into the conversation? And what is alive for you when you hear it read to you?

jeff thompson (05:36)

Oh yeah. It's on my wall, and I'm wondering if maybe I got it as a card, or saw it as a card and got it. I don't really remember. But see, that's one I can't claim for myself. That is Rumi. Although maybe it was me in the passage of time, and then Rumi got it from me, and now it's coming back. I just don't remember from past lives.

I think what comes to mind at this moment is that somebody I knew expressed some concern about judgment, and the phrase just typified it for me: I'm just not invested in judging somebody else. And then I can play with it and think, okay, is that really just about healthy boundaries? Sure, I can have a position, like not thinking people need to die for there to be peace. That's a position. Somebody might go, yes, they do. And rather than never talking to that person, or never joining the same field, I think more can be had by at least meeting them in the field.

Ross Tayler (06:55)

Yeah. It's making me think of the idea of acceptance, that universal love. And it makes me reflect on my time working at a treatment centre in the Okanagan. The people there had a lot more struggle with their addictions than I had been used to, and had done what you might call horrific things in their addiction. And I could always see beyond that, and see their heart, and see their goodness that was hidden by the addiction, or taken over by it. I could always see beyond it, without judgment, that these were good people, despite the actions they were feeling so much guilt and shame about. So it reminds me of that. I'll meet you there for that conversation.

jeff thompson (07:52)

Yeah, I love that. And it's really nice to hear you say that, because I think the more folks have that kind of belief or experience, that at the core there's such radiant goodness, which doesn't mean it can't be enveloped by a lot of crap and heinous activities, the more steadfast [?] we feel in that conviction, then I think there's more chance of that coming through. Letting that love loose, not having it protected by such crappy behavior, or what have you.

And if we go as far as thinking of the universe, say there's an appetite in the universe to expand. Then it has to be free to be creative. I'm just playing with these ideas. And with that freedom comes variety, and, for lack of a better word, failure. Because if things are just cookie cutter, if it's just repetitious, then there's not going to be the diversity necessary for optimal health, let's say, even as a human being: complexity and integration. And in that complexity stage, I think things can go awry.

My hope is that, with the spreading belief in expanding further rather than contracting in the face of challenges... if we go back to the war thing, or say homicidal efforts or activity or thoughts, I think there's way more chance that a limitless expansion of love can bring that someplace different.

Ross Tayler (10:15)

A few years back I had a psilocybin journey, and I was shown something like what you were describing. I find these visions hard to describe at times, but the essence of it was that I met some sort of being, and I was shown the polarity of everything. And the bottom line was that it creates a beautiful problem. There are these beautiful problems unfolding in our lives, and we don't always get to understand both sides of them. But once we do, we can see the growth and the expansion that came from them. If it wasn't for the one side, the other side wouldn't be possible. I think about what I would call my darkest moment, and that was the catalyst for so much growth. It was a catalyst for, I won't ever do that again. And it created this awareness of the trajectory I wanted to go on. So we can easily judge one side of that polarity, but growth can come from it, learning can come from it, love can come from it. And it's hard to see that when we're in it.

jeff thompson (11:27)

Totally. I like this conversation because you mentioned unfolding, or I felt like you said the word unfolding. To me, I think that is key. In the face of an appetite or an impulse to contract for safety, how do we potentially allow more vulnerability, or unfolding? Then, like you say, there is a bigger picture.

That said, where I find it challenging is when I think of somebody who's been sexually assaulted. I don't feel like that's part of a bigger, beautiful picture. But in the face of such a catastrophe, do I believe they have options? Or, maybe less inflammatory: I cross the street, I get hit by a car, and I can never walk the same way again. Do I wish that car never hit me? Can I have both? Can I wish the car never hit me, and be really glad about how I responded to that calamity? So I guess that goes back to everybody's individual experience. Maybe that's my out. For me, I can point to things that are challenging or have been challenging, and I've gotten things from them, and I'm in a better place. Do I think I could be in an even better place if those things hadn't happened? I don't know. But I'm committed to the unfolding, or expansion.

Ross Tayler (13:16)

Yes, and I'm grateful to you for pointing to the complexities of what I was pointing to, because there are complexities, and there are levels to that. I think I was directing it back to my individual experience, versus trying to assess the experience or outcome for someone else. That's complicated. So I appreciate you shining a light on that part.

jeff thompson (13:43)

Yeah, it's really interesting, because maybe in a psychedelic experience, you can see from that perception how other lives are going to get better, or that this is just a tiny part of their existence, in the realm of time and the roles they play. But again, that's one perception.

Ross Tayler (14:11)

Exactly. And this thread we've gone on reminds me a little bit of psychodrama. I've had the blessing of sitting with and witnessing many of the psychodramas that occurred at the centre, which you facilitated. We haven't really mentioned it yet, but you're a psychodramatist, and also a trainer in it. And it makes me think about the higher aspects of what's playing out in those dramatizations of our past experiences, and how they seem to transcend time and space and have an impact outside of the experience. I'm curious what you would want to say about that, in the context of what we were just talking about, and what you've witnessed in that realm.

jeff thompson (15:07)

Yeah, it's neat how you link those realms, because I feel like that's accurate. When somebody's a protagonist in a psychodrama, or in a role, people often describe the experience as going somewhere else, into a different realm. The person who played someone's dead Italian grandmother, the protagonist saw them as their Italian grandmother. So I think it's really cool, because it suggests that we have within us the capability of letting go and going places we never thought possible, without actually imbibing a hallucinogen. We have all that stuff within us. It's just a lot easier, and faster, sometimes with a psychedelic.

And I think you've heard of accomplished meditators, maybe Tibetan folks, who do a psychedelic and go, yeah, I was able to meet all my previous teachers from previous lives, or whatever. It was just a little more efficient than meditation, but there was no place they hadn't gone before. So I'd say that in ideal psychodramas, people are in a different state, a different realm, and can go anywhere. And if they follow their inclination, they really know what they need, so that inner healing intelligence comes forth.

And maybe that gets us back to figuring out how we deal with personal strife, and how we see somebody else deal with their strife. Whether it's a cop-out or not, I believe in that inner healing intelligence, just like you said, that gem inside everybody. We all have that. If people are with their heartedness and allow themselves to ask, what do I need? I think there's great power in that.

Ross Tayler (17:25)

And often these areas of strife we're trying to resolve are about unmet needs, incomplete situations. These things get resolved through these dramatizations, which is super powerful. We get the end result we didn't get, and our body gets to have that experience and metabolize it, and that is what creates the potential catalyst for change. And I agree with what you're saying about this innate intelligence that exists within us, which in some ways is always wanting to return to its natural state, a state of wholeness, whatever you want to call it.

jeff thompson (18:08)

And then I think one of the challenges is, how do we live there, versus it just being a place we visited? Say somebody role reverses with their cancer and has a different relationship with it. In this imagined psychodrama, they come to a space where they have an opportunity to love deeper than they ever have before, and that's their commitment. Or, for lack of a better term, through play acting, they're able to open their heart to their abusive parents. So how do people retain that, beyond, ooh, those neural pathways lit up, that's one way of being? Because then they go back to a working atmosphere that's kind of toxic, and the same defense patterns, the same fears, come up.

So that's where, I guess, psychedelics may offer something: you can measure the neuroplasticity, the window for new habits to take place. And maybe we just haven't done that in psychodrama. Is it the same necessity for integration? How do you hold on to that? How do you have body practices to ensure it's the lasting change you want? I think people can change in all different ways, whether it's in a dream, or a forest walk, or psychedelics, or another sentient being, through healthy attachment.

Ross Tayler (20:15)

There are so many ways to get to the same destination, and at the bottom of it is really the intelligence of our body trying to do what it needs to do and get us back to something. In some ways, the body always knows what it needs. It's our mind that gets in the way. And maybe that's what gets in the way of integration as well: believing that we have the time, or trusting that integration can happen, or just giving it intention. We're living in a world that is moving so quickly, and we want results so quickly. We go and have these experiences, whatever they are, and we don't have time to pause, perhaps, to allow that integration to take place. We have to go back to work on Monday. So there are all sorts of layers to that, but maybe even that's perfect.

jeff thompson (21:09)

Yeah, it's interesting. I like that you're talking about the body and the journey, the body's wisdom. Maybe that's what I like about psychodrama: it really invites the full body wisdom. We can put an invisible line down, and at one end is, I feel complete, I'm really on my path. And we could see it as a multi-lane highway: how far does your body say you are from the path? As soon as we move our body, it's going to tell us. Maybe we're seven lanes over, way back. Or it's like, this road doesn't fit at all. It's a journey that's constantly changing, but I like inviting the body's wisdom.

And if I can turn the conversation, just to play, to explore, because we're talking about real-life problems: we look at inner healing intelligence, and what do I need. And every time I go into the Downtown Eastside, into [Atira?] to work with counsellors there, I generally have to walk over people in various states of active addiction. All super nice. I can see the overwhelming power of heartfulness in these folks, but they're suffering. So I'm stepping up the steps saying, excuse me, I just have to get in here, and everybody's really kind. So how do we support someone there to look at what they need? If we role reversed with those folks, I'm going to guess it would be the next high, maybe some food, maybe some warmth. But, and I'm just following this through experience, so many times it is about relationships. And so many times, people know exactly what they need to heal from, at least in this realm. That's one thing I've learned as a psychodramatist: so often, if people are safe enough, it's traumatic experiences that they're inviting some help in how to respond to.

Ross Tayler (23:46)

And maybe it's important to take a little step back, because we've been talking about psychodrama without really talking about what it is. Maybe you could give a quick sentence or two, or more, about what psychodrama is, just so the listener can fully understand it and picture it.

jeff thompson (24:08)

Sure. If people were to see it, they would say it's a blend of therapy and theatre. That's basically it. It's enacting anything, exploring things through the body and through a group. There's always lots of warm-up, so people feel safe and playful. Then there's way more chance new ways of being can be explored, because people's bodies know they're safe to explore without getting judged.

So even in a psychodrama, if we were to explore, I need to go to the beginning of the universe, because that's where I'm going to find my answer to live the fullest life, to be the happiest I could be, then the director might say, okay, well, do you want to set up the beginning of the universe? Do you want actors to play it? And my body might point to two different spots and say, yeah, actors, I want you to be cell A and you to be cell B. And way over there, actually beyond those doors, because it's going to take me a while to get there. Oh, but let's say I have a jet plane. And you just go and explore. And what do A and B say to you? Well, this is as far as you get to go today, but we'll talk to you, we're representatives. And you just explore what feels nourishing to explore. Nothing's outside the realm of possibility, besides our creativity, I guess.

Ross Tayler (25:54)

Yeah, I love that. And all things relational, all experiences. People can play the different roles in a family dynamic, or a partnership where a conversation didn't get to happen, all those kinds of things.

jeff thompson (26:07)

Yeah, and one of my favorite lead-ins is just to express something to somebody you never had a chance to, or haven't yet, or that wouldn't be safe to. And it's not a rehearsal. It's just to be, and to explore safely, with your own truth of what you need, and with witnesses. And if it's synergistic and there's been good group building, then maybe in the debriefing, the sharing afterwards about how it touched folks in the room, the drama might have been more about somebody who played a role, or they might say they got more out of it than they ever expected. The person playing cell A at the beginning of the universe might say, I just felt like I was in a womb, and it was so neat, and I realized that even though my mom said I wasn't wanted, something beyond that told me I was wanted. Which might be super healing for them, and little did they know it was going to come from playing cell A of the universe.

Ross Tayler (27:20)

I remember witnessing a time when the person was sitting in the chair, with the opportunity to hear the things they didn't get to hear. I think there were one or two people playing the role of reflecting the things that needed to be said. So the body got to feel the experience of hearing what, in a perfect world, they would have been able to hear, and got to take those things in. In some ways it seems so simple, yet it's so powerful, because those were the missing experiences that didn't get to happen back in the day.

jeff thompson (27:59)

It is remarkable, and I can see why Bessel van der Kolk says psychodrama is his number one healing modality for trauma. I've heard him say that a couple of times now, thank goodness. His template is to look at what needs were not met growing up, and to get those needs met in surplus reality, like you said, and it's potentially extremely healing. And it's good that he doesn't stop there either. Once that's actually been met, there's the recognition of what your parents' needs were that weren't met. Even if you've never met your parents, you can still explore all of that, I think. So, one, there's having compassion, but there's also the potential of getting to hear what you need, or getting the touch or the experience you didn't get, from a healed parent. You could go on ad nauseam, because of the loop effect back to cell A and cell B. Maybe cell C was there too.

But yeah, it is really amazing to me, the capacity to heal through that structure. It's almost like there's a template within us that's able to heal, like a puzzle piece that's missing, and it knows exactly where to go and insert it and soothe things. And I do think it's really interesting how the words I'm sorry can be ridiculously powerful. They're so hard to say, from perpetrators to themselves, or to the, let's say, victim. But they have such powerful healing for all the agents involved. Acknowledging.

Ross Tayler (30:08)

Yeah. It's interesting, because I've been involved in men's work for about 12 years, and what I've witnessed at times is that processes emerge in these circles so organically. The processes you're talking about that occur in psychodrama kind of surface on their own. I've witnessed moments where men are like, oh, I think you just need to hear something from your mom, and maybe someone can play your mom. So there's also this intelligence driving these possibilities. As a matter of fact, recently I was the participant, at the centre of the process, and the men all just came around and intuitively held and supported my back, and I could just lean into that. I was blown away. I didn't ask for that. I didn't even articulate it that clearly. And yet there were six or seven men behind me, just organically stepping into this way of being. There's an intelligence guiding it. So it's not to minimize what you do, but both things are happening at the same time, right?

jeff thompson (31:19)

No, yeah. I so appreciate that, because long before Moreno coined the phrase group psychotherapy, people were healing each other. Maybe it gets back to that: whatever we need to do to let love loose, then it knows what to do. People toy around with that word, but it's in isolation that there's so much suffering. With healthy community and support of one another, so much is possible.

Ross Tayler (32:10)

And you referenced letting love loose, so it's a perfect opportunity to loop back to what we shared at the beginning, in your bio. If you play that out a bit, what does it look like when we let love loose?

jeff thompson (32:25)

That's the thing. Who knows? If we really let love loose, would we all turn to light? I don't know. Because then we go home. I'm just playing. If we really, really kept on letting go of defenses, and there were enough of us doing that, is there enough energy for us to experience existence in a way we never have before? It's potentially scary as hell, but maybe good. I can feel it in my body. If I'm able to expand in the face of the appetite for contraction, good things happen.

So say somebody knocks at my door during this. How is it different if I slow that down? Say it was in a psychodrama, because I'd probably benefit from that. How do I come back to such a heartful place, and move to that door in such a heartful place, with compassion, loving that person with all my heart? How does that potentially change the interaction? And I think that's the practice I try at, and fail miserably at, daily. But there are moments where it's less failure, you know?

So yeah, I like to think that on some level we all want to do that. And you ask what it would look like if we all let our love loose. I think it's so hard to fathom what could happen, because of all that energy and all that power. That brings it back to what's beyond our imagination of what's possible, beyond collective imagination. Each unique entity, I think, has an ability to spark something phenomenal. That's just my belief. I think if we hold the belief that anything's possible, then there's way more chance it is. Do I think all pain and suffering could go away, and we could have a delightful, amazing existence? I think so. I just don't know how.

Ross Tayler (35:27)

And I love what you said, because there are times when I can absolutely be in that place of love, and then there are other situations where I can't seem to access it. In hindsight, I'm like, if only I had done this. It's good that we have awareness, and yet we're human, we're having that human experience too. We can't always anticipate everything. And our body might be having a reaction to something without us realizing what it's connecting to. So there are so many layers to that.

But I love the idea of what happens when we let love loose. And perhaps that's the segue to the other side of what you shared, this idea of collective expansion in the face of fear. There's a lot of that going on in the world right now. We're seeing a lot of fear paradigms playing out. How do we expand as a result of that?

jeff thompson (36:24)

Yeah, because, why not? Why not talk about how we solve the world's problems? And I do think it's by harkening to the power of our heartfulness. I think I heard this morning on CBC a talk about Netanyahu, and how he talked about how, in scripture, godliness doesn't win. You might have to have might, and history shows that dominance can triumph. He didn't say evil. And I think he's recanted, or said he wouldn't say that again. But let's say people feel that, and say, well, there just has to be murder, and all the righteous wars we're hearing about. Maybe that takes us back to the Rumi quote: let's meet in a field. What would happen if Trump and Vance were surrounded by a community committed to seeing the heartfulness in those folks, buried deep perhaps, or maybe closer to the surface than imagined, but looking for it? And looking for ways to support the best in these people? I don't know. I like to believe that amazing things can still come. So how do we solve that? I think there's way more chance through love. And I do think we're really moved by kindness. So I'm just playing with that idea. Sure, we don't neglect all the pain and suffering, but we also take in the incredible caring and selflessness, and all the power that love does create.

Ross Tayler (38:57)

It's definitely a medicine that can do so much. So much that we can't anticipate, so much that transcends ways of being. And it goes back to many things we've said about what happens when we look at things from a different perspective, or say the thing we don't usually say. It has an impact. Even in the things we're facing in our world right now, there's the potential for different outcomes. All it takes is one person to say, this isn't the highest path, or whatever that might look like, and all of a sudden we're on a different trajectory.

jeff thompson (39:39)

Like the idea of those folks coming to your back, so to speak. If we look at that in a wider way: who's hurting, and how do we support them? Because our bodies know, like you said, to move toward folks who are hurting. That doesn't mean that if somebody's lashing out, you don't still stay at arm's distance. But it means helping them feel safe enough that when they allow themselves to be vulnerable, that vulnerability has support. Because I think that's the healingness of it: when somebody is vulnerable and supported, it can be life changing. Are some folks so wrapped in barbed wire that they won't let themselves be vulnerable? Well, maybe it's about how we model vulnerability, so they know it's an option, and a desired option. I guess maybe it's a continuing problem, not one solution, but we can believe there have got to be solutions.

Ross Tayler (40:49)

And it's making me think of something I heard last week, I think. I was listening to someone speak about a body of work I'm part of, and the original practitioner, you could say, made the comment: whenever I'm talking to a client, I always pretend I'm talking to their seven-year-old self, because that's where the conditioning began. That's where the original trauma likely was. And if I remember that I'm speaking to the seven-year-old part that's kind of stuck there, it helps me to speak to them the right way, and to remember that that's what's playing out right now. It's that hurt seven-year-old self. Obviously, seven is a very precise number, but generally we have experiences around that time. So I thought that was an interesting perspective. It's not to talk down to someone. It's just to recognize, that's who I'm talking to right now.

jeff thompson (41:53)

Yeah, that's kind of cool, just to imagine that it's all parts, you could say, parts of ourselves. Long before IFS [?], people thought of the parts of ourselves, I think. And whether it's parts, or a younger part that's there, or past lives that you're also speaking to the energy from. Again, if there was such a thing as the beginning of the universe, that part is there too. And to have welcome and reverence for all those parts, I think there's more chance that all those parts can then be welcomed, and more chance of them having self-reverence as well. But I really do like that vision of the childlike innocence that I think we all retain. Much can be done, I think, if we allow that part to surface.

Ross Tayler (43:04)

And children are inherently brilliant. The perspectives they hold, there's a true wisdom there that I've witnessed.

jeff thompson (43:14)

Yeah. So, thinking of you as a seven-year-old, if that seven-year-old was in the room, on the couch behind you... I think they would be clapping if they were watching me. Or shooting something at your ear, I'm not sure. But if you're open to going there: what if we role reversed with your seven-year-old right now, and I asked, what's one compliment you want to offer Ross, the adult Ross of today? What might that seven-year-old offer you as a compliment?

Ross Tayler (44:24)

Yeah. First off, it brings up emotions. And the words that come are, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of who you've become. I'm proud of all the things you've accomplished. I love the things you're doing, because from this perspective, I couldn't have imagined those things.

jeff thompson (44:46)

Yeah, because when I play at role reversing, even without anything physical, that's kind of what I was getting: thanks for not giving up. Thanks for being so goddamn strong.

Ross Tayler (45:05)

Thank you for that. It was unexpected, and of course, I needed to hear that today.

jeff thompson (45:12)

I'm so happy to share in this. Thanks for your playfulness and openness and your ability to be vulnerable. And that's exactly, I think, what we're talking about. Can we be vulnerable and let go of guarding as much as possible? Letting love loose. Safety with sentient beings and all.

Ross Tayler (45:37)

Maybe as the last little tangent we can go on before we end our conversation, there's this idea of creativity beyond what's ever been imagined. What would you say about that? It feels like an important piece. I'm going through them in reverse order from the way I read them, but creativity is probably the byproduct of all of these things we've been talking about. Or maybe it's the source of it, the essence of it.

jeff thompson (46:02)

Yeah, I think so much is possible with collective intelligence, each unique part. I remember a psychedelic intention of mine was offering myself as keen to go beyond what is possible. Beyond possibility. Because I'm thinking, there just has to be something more than pain and suffering. And who's to say any of us can't create that? One human can't do that, we think. But what if we let go of that? We can think of all the rationalizations for why it's not possible. But what if it was beyond possibility, and we acted in ways I would never have imagined possible?

And I'll say, it's one of those psychedelic intentions: be careful what you ask for. At some point, I ended up in the role of the creator. I don't know if I've shared this with you before. And I felt this horrible weight of failing people, all this pain and suffering, in this role I knew I was taking, but was really in as well. And I'll just cut to the chase, but through a lot of, let's say, challenges in the psychedelic experience, it became clear to me, at least in that perception, that this was a pact with humanity. That humanity wanted choice, freedom and power, and the only way to do that was to let go of being able to heal everything for everybody.

And then I saw people going through incredible pain in their journeys, and thought, this is an example of choice. People are choosing to have this psychedelic experience. They don't want it to be interrupted. They're finding something in their psychedelic experience. And then, thinking of humanity as a whole, are we trusting that we're finding something through all this pain and suffering, collective and individual? Just trusting that it propels us to greater healing. So that beyond possibility, I think that's possible.

Ross Tayler (48:55)

I love that perspective, and I think it's important to hold on to it at times, and to imagine that the limitations we put in front of ourselves may not be real. A lot of the time they aren't, because they're created by our mind. So thank you for all of this conversation. I always like to close with the same question, so I'll offer it to you. The question is, what's one simple way someone could connect with the sacred today?

jeff thompson (49:22)

Yeah, I think it's them asking themselves, how do I connect with the sacred? For somebody, it might be touching their nose, like the character in Bewitched. Somebody else might do a dance where they expand beyond their body. Somebody else might let their dog lick their face. I like the idea of just asking yourself, how do I connect with the sacred?

Ross Tayler (49:51)

Brilliant.

jeff thompson (49:52)

Yeah, I appreciate your generosity.

Ross Tayler (49:56)

Thank you so much for this conversation. I love all the places we went, and it was really great and nourishing to connect with you in this way and have this touch point. Luckily I got to see you in person last week, I think.

jeff thompson (50:11)

Yeah. I look forward to more of all that with you.

Ross Tayler (50:14)

Yeah, so thank you so much for being a part of this conversation.

jeff thompson (50:19)

And thanks for continuing to listen to yourself.

Ross Tayler (50:24)

You are very welcome.

Ross Tayler (50:25)

Thank you for joining us on Sacred Sundays. I hope something in today's offering spoke to your spirit, stirred something true, or simply gave you a moment to breathe. If this conversation resonated, please subscribe, rate, or share. It truly helps this work reach the people who are meant to find it. If you'd like to step inside my world a little further, I host a free live practice three mornings a week called Start With You. Just 20 minutes on Zoom to return to your own energy. Everything you need can be found at the link in the show notes. Until next time, may your day be slow and sacred.