Claire Bonin: Embodied Intelligence

Ross Tayler: I'm happy to welcome Claire Bonin to the Sacred Sundays podcast. Claire is a clinical herbalist and witch based in Nanaimo, BC. She has been working with herbs since 2015, graduating with her community herbalist certificate and diploma of phytotherapy from Pacific Rim College in 2019. Through each adventure and misadventure life has presented since then, there's always been a herb friend patiently waiting to guide her back home to herself. This love affair with plants is the backbone upon which she has built a following of over 95,000 witches on TikTok. Her craving for connection, depth, and long-form love notes to plant friends is the perennial joy driving the offerings she shares with students and patients alike. So happy to welcome you to the podcast, Claire.

Claire Bonin: Happy to be with you, Ross. Thank you.

Ross Tayler: Claire is going to begin by sharing a guided meditation with us, so I'll hand it over to you, Claire.

Claire Bonin: Amazing, thank you so much. Wherever you find yourself today, take a moment and really find yourself in space. Let whatever momentum you've had in your day settle into your body. If you're doing something with your hands, let them come to stillness, and find yourself in a seated position where you can be alert but also at rest.

Here at the beginning, I'm going to invite you to take a couple of deep breaths. Inhale through the nose, and sigh through the mouth.

I'll ask you to begin by bringing your attention to your heart space, very gently making note of any tension that you have in your body. At this point we're not trying to do anything with this tension at all. We're simply noticing, being really present with ourselves. If you lose that presence, just come back to breath. Let yourself breathe in, and breathe out.

Now, here at the beginning as well, I'd like you to bring to mind someone with whom you have an uncomplicated, loving relationship. This could be a parent, a grandparent, a lover, a pet, the divine, whoever it is, as long as it's someone who sees you for all your virtues and your flaws and loves you unconditionally. Invite that awareness into your heart space, and as you do, notice what happens in your body. Notice if there's any softening around your heart space. Maybe a little bit of tension gets released through your neck and shoulders. Really let yourself be seen by this presence.

Now I'm going to ask you to bring to mind something in your life that has a bit of an edge for you. This could be something that is a cause for frustration at the moment, or maybe has some sadness attached to it, or maybe somewhere you feel stuck in your life. As you bring this situation to mind, notice how your body responds to the stimulus. A little bit of tension, maybe, or an internal gripping. Again, we're not trying to do anything with that. We're just noticing.

Now call back the being you invited into your heart space at the beginning of this meditation. With them in the room, what would they say to you when it comes to dealing with this situation? This being who loves you so much, what would they say to you now? All we're doing here is listening, feeling a moment of grace.

Thank that being that you invited into your space for their insight, and set the situation to the side, just for a moment. Have a moment of gratitude, and soak in that sweet love, that sweet, uncomplicated love. I know that you can come back to this space at any time, whenever you need it.

In a moment I'm going to invite you to come back to the room, wherever you are. Before you do, take a nice deep inhale through the nose and gently sigh through the mouth. Bring some gentle movement to your fingers and toes. It might feel really nice to place one hand at the back of your skull, just at the base of your neck, and one over your eyes, and take a deep breath here too. When you're ready, open your eyes and come back to the room, wherever you are.

Ross Tayler: Beautiful meditation. Thank you.

Claire Bonin: Yeah, it's a juicy one.

Ross Tayler: It is. I like the contrast of those two experiences and holding them in that way.

Claire Bonin: It's a big part of my work to track the sensations in the body, and that's one meditation I feel is so subtle in that way, but it always brings me right back to it.

Ross Tayler: Claire, I wanted to start off by saying I'm just blown away. 95,000 witches on TikTok. I feel like that is significant in so many ways. I think it speaks to the work that you do and your presence. Just to think of the reclaiming that goes along with that, 95,000 witches, considering the ancestral history that goes along with it. I'm imagining that wasn't your intention, that you were just being yourself and attracting all of these followers. What would you like to share with the listeners about that journey?

Claire Bonin: That's a really kind question to start with, first of all. Thank you. And you were right. TikTok is a really strange zone to play in. One of the things that was interesting and surprising to me, when I started periodically going quite viral on TikTok, was that people were connecting to things that I was surprised they would find interesting, quite frankly. I would just turn on the camera and be really excited to share about the intersections of herbs and magic, and teaching herbs, and thinking about herbs in the ways I had craved learning about them more in school. Then I discovered that people were craving this level of, I think you used the word reclamation, which is very apt. I think there's something about herbalism that a lot of people are attracted to because we're tired of talking about things and we're looking for an inroad to a more body-based practice. It felt really good to connect with people that way.

Ross Tayler: So just really organic.

Claire Bonin: Purely.

Ross Tayler: That's amazing. I've never been on TikTok, so I don't really know what you're referring to, but I think there are remnants of it on Instagram, in terms of the reels. I'm assuming there are some similarities.

Claire Bonin: There can be. To be honest with you, I haven't had any success on Instagram. There seems to be a different sort of politic on Instagram. A lot more polish is required of people. If you've met me in the wild, I curse like a sailor. I like wearing ripped jeans. There's something about not being as curated that I think works really well on a separate platform, which is great, because who has time for that? You know what I'm saying?

Ross Tayler: I think it's a refreshing perspective to be that way. I'm surrounded by several people who would say the same thing you do, swear like a sailor, and there's something about that that is really refreshing. I met you, I think probably a month ago, at an event in Nanaimo. I haven't seen a lot of your Instagram, but what I have seen has a lot of beauty and a lot of depth. It's very clear, like in Human Design, you're a projector, and it comes across. What you're doing and the way you do it is very magnetic, and that is the hallmark of a projector in alignment.

Claire Bonin: Thank you for that. Learning that I was a projector was pretty mind-blowing. There's something about the journey of being really shocked that the things that make you who you are are exciting and life-giving to you. I don't know how to say this without sounding a little bit crazy, but there's sometimes a bit of narcissism that we get, where we think, this is my thing. Then you share it with people and it's like, no, I'm one of many, everyone loves this. This is insane.

Ross Tayler: That's one of the things I encounter in some of the groups that I do whenever we sit in circle. I think you and I might have talked about this at the gathering we were at. There's always someone who needs to hear what someone else says, or someone else who's going through that experience. We can easily judge what we're about to say or share, but really there's a collective energy that is desiring that exact thing.

Claire Bonin: Yeah, it's so real.

Ross Tayler: What would you say to someone who thinks, herbalist, I don't know what that is? Where would you begin that conversation if someone was listening and wanted to learn about this for the first time?

Claire Bonin: I like that question a lot. It's a really interesting practice. I think there are two answers: the textbook answer, and the one I actually tell people. The textbook answer is that there are two inroads into herbal medicine. My training was really classical, so I have a lot of Western medical science backing what I do in the body. Then there's also a huge lineage of folk tradition when it comes to the practice of herbal medicine, which is at its heart very land-based, and about learning to understand the rhythms of the land and the way those rhythms also show up in our own bodies and physiologies and our mental and emotional landscapes.

The way I practice herbalism, because no two herbalists practice the same way, is about learning to speak those languages and be present with someone, and sense and listen to what their emotional patterns are, and act as a matchmaker between a herb and whatever symptom or disharmony they're coming to you for help with. I will say that there's a right herb for everyone, but sometimes it's really hard to locate which herb it is if you don't know what you're looking for. Herbs are really complex.

Ross Tayler: How does herbalism differ from Chinese medicine, or is there a crossover?

Claire Bonin: That's a good question. Chinese medicine is my favorite diagnostic system that I've learned, and it's ancient. There's a richness to it. It has a whole language that involves meridians and five element theory, and the way the organ systems work in Chinese medicine doesn't necessarily translate to the way we talk about the organs in Western medical science. Herbalism is a little different in that the way we formulate herbs is really different. In Chinese medicine, they tend to have set formulations for different things. One formula will do 15 different things, and they're really powerful and really do what they say they're going to do. The way a lot of Western herbalists practice is that we formulate based on the person in front of us, so no two formulas look the same, and there's a lot of flexibility. Some herbalists will only prescribe one herb at a time. Some will do formulas with 15 herbs in them. It's a little bit different in that way.

Ross Tayler: In what you described before, you alluded to a shamanic element, a connection to the earth and the patterns of nature that we're perhaps living contrary to. I imagine that some of the people who show up in front of you are having that experience, living out of alignment with the energies around us, and by drawing on the herbs, you're bringing alignment back through nature as the solution. Is that accurate?

Claire Bonin: I would say that's a really big part of it, for sure. I like to teach seasonal workshops in that exact spirit. We're in the fall, and I find myself reaching for these herbs, and maybe it would be nice for people to know why. We're really taught to distrust the rhythm of our bodies. Think of the dark of winter, when we're supposed to be hibernating and getting into more yin states, or even the fall, which is associated with grief and the lungs. That's such an unpopular emotion culturally. It's so taboo. So we stay busy, we stay hyped as a way to avoid going into those places, and that unfortunately makes those patterns go deeper. But it is really interesting. Sitting across the table from people, the emotional patterns that come up seasonally are like clockwork. Isn't that interesting?

Ross Tayler: I think the reason I asked the question was that just last week I did a talk on that very thing, aligning with the seasons and how we get out of alignment. This is a time of slowing down and going within and withdrawing our energy from everything, and yet everything is ramping up. We've got Halloween and Thanksgiving and then Christmas, and it's go, go, go. One of the participants in that conversation made a comment about her own inner cycle and how that is a reflection of the seasons, and I wondered how that played into the work that you do. I think you're answering that question quite nicely. Is there anything you want to add?

Claire Bonin: The thing that comes to mind, when we speak about the cyclical nature of the universe and of life, is that life is a circle. A lot of the time, when we have things happen in our lives, like traumas or really difficult seasons, we forget that we'll have a chance to revisit it at some point, and we'll have a lot of tools that we accumulate until that time comes again. We are so much more equipped to handle our lives than I think we think we are.

The spiritual aspect of herbalism is really interesting, because whenever I intuitively reach for a plant... let me think of a good example. Today I was reaching for elderflower, which is such a huge ally for me. She's so beautiful. When I paused and wondered why I was attracted to elder today, I thought, okay, this is an antiviral plant that also has a settling effect on really spicy emotions, which is perfect for this time of year. It helps us go down and in. But sometimes we reach for things without realizing why, and learning to trust that impulse again is a really important aspect of trusting the body again. It's also knowing that we're just animals. We're having this crazy experience. Life is a circle. You already know what you need to do, whether or not you've trusted that intuitive ping and gone toward it.

Ross Tayler: You're pointing to something I've said a few times over the course of doing this podcast, and it's worth saying again in this context. 70 percent of the population in Human Design is a generator type, with the energy to keep going and moving. One of the things I say to myself, and to every generator I encounter, is that we have to go slow to go fast. Part of slowing down and hitting the brakes is listening to our internal cues and connecting internally in a way we may not have before. When we slow down enough, we can tune into what our body wants and needs and find the answer we otherwise wouldn't be able to see. I'm guessing that through the work you're doing and the herbs you're sharing, you're helping people do just that.

Claire Bonin: Absolutely. It's a really interesting experiment, because I am an introvert at heart. I'm much better at listening than I am at talking. You can read in people's body language that they just need to be given the space to find their own answer about things. When I started with that meditation, where do you feel this tension in your body, that question is gold when it comes to tuning back into those cycles. Tension in the body has so much information to give us about what sort of resistance we have in our lives versus where we're finding flow. We live in really intelligent things, these bodies of ours.

Ross Tayler: When we're living through the mind, that is the opposite. We're thinking our way through everything and retelling stories, and we're bypassing all of the wisdom that is literally below our neck. I notice that a lot when I'm working with clients. I'll say, okay, wait, stop right now. What are you noticing in your body? Where are you having sensations? Almost 100 percent of the time people are able to reflect that back fairly quickly, but they have to stop and drop down into it. Usually there's tremendous wisdom that comes from that sensation. Like you said, with the circular nature of things, there's a connection to the past with that feeling, because I'll often ask the next question: when do you first remember feeling that feeling? What's the origin of it? How far back does it go? It's usually somewhere between five and seven years old. It's fascinating, the wisdom that exists. I really love any modality that brings that level of slowness, bypasses our mind, and gets us into our body in a supportive way. Again, that comes back to the work you're doing.

Claire Bonin: I love that you brought it back to that spirit of, if we are not living in the present moment, there's a lot of room for those narratives to eclipse reality. I'm in the middle of a book right now called Flourishing Kin [?], by a woman whose name I'm not sure of [?]. She talks about how contemplative practices have been co-opted in the West to make us better worker bees, rather than honoring the Indigenous way of doing contemplative practice, which would have been to develop a relationship with the land. Through developing that relationship, we create ethics that make us more protective of the land, but also more protective of the fact that there's only one me in this moment who's experiencing this moment. I never get to experience this again. I think that's just such a beautiful thing to return to.

Ross Tayler: Yeah, it really is. You said something that made me think about what we talked about at the beginning, the question around the witches. I just have this belief that this was something intuitively known and systematically suppressed because of the wisdom contained in these teachings and these knowings. So I wonder about the rise of the feminine, the rise of the witches. To me, it's nothing but a good sign, because it means all of these teachings that are so beneficial, and these ways of being that are so important, are returning.

Claire Bonin: Absolutely. My temperature check on the culture of that has really shifted from being in the realm for so many years. In 2011, everyone and their dog wanted to be a witch. It was very, very trendy, and the idea of opening the door to that suddenly became available. I think that's so wonderful. We need more people doing the dance, if you will. I also think we're about to see another change in that realm. In the people I'm working with, I'm seeing a craving for more depth and autonomy when it comes to spiritual practices. People want to know there's a lot of integrity behind what they're adopting, and the aesthetic isn't cutting it anymore. I've come in and out of a lot of different modalities in my 15 years in the spiritual realm, and I always come back to herbalism, because it's the thing I've put the most time into learning. Because it isn't easily commodified, I really keep returning to it. Capitalism hasn't been able to package it up and sell it en masse. It's a very slow form of being.

Ross Tayler: I love that. It makes me think, what are the most common reasons that people show up asking for your services and your support? I don't know if they're symptoms or ways of being. Perhaps you could speak to that.

Claire Bonin: Totally. Symptom-wise, a lot of people are looking for nervous system support. A lot of the time, having been failed by the medical system is a really big thing for a lot of people. It's a last-ditch effort, a Hail Mary, if you will. A lot of people who are seeking more autonomy over their bodies also tend to seek out herbal medicine. I think there's a level of seeking that remembrance of self, like what you're saying. I'm a bit of a rebel at heart. I have Saturn in Aquarius. I find that when people realize the rules aren't real, they think, I may as well be weird and figure out what actually works for me outside of those confines. Does that answer your question?

Ross Tayler: Yeah. I'm curious about the autonomy you mentioned. I'm always coming from the place of, if there's somebody listening who knows nothing, how can we frame all of this for them? What does it mean to come back to the autonomy in your body? I find that fascinating, because I feel like a lot of us are literally moving through the world from our head up. We're so mentally focused and mentally driven and results-oriented, and we've been trained to be that way. When I hear you say autonomy of your body, I think there's more to that. I know that because of my own journey.

Claire Bonin: Totally, thank you for clarifying that. It's an interesting relationship that we have with the medical system in our culture. I want to be really clear that modern medicine is unbelievably powerful, and there are so many things I just cannot do. Please don't come to me for surgery, that's just not my purview. At the same time, because we have these incredible minds in doctors, there's a tremendous amount of pressure on doctors, and they don't always have the time or the tools to meet people where they're at. We kind of deify them, which is really depersonalizing to the doctors and really unfair to the patients as well. What happens is people start to realize that in order to become a version of well that feels better to them, they might have to get a bit more creative.

The other part is that herbalism is folk medicine. A lot of its roots would have been in people who don't have tremendous amounts of income or wealth at their disposal, who would really need to know what is safe to harvest, and to grow their own medicine and their own food as a way to maintain their wellbeing throughout life. If you don't have access to good healthcare, that's really what you have to do. I think that's important to have in the conversation, because herbalism is for everyone. Sometimes that's why people can have a bit of an aversion to it at first, along with the feeling that it's a little rough around the edges. But that's also its charm and its appeal, because it's so eternal.

Ross Tayler: When you were talking, it made me think of the work of Gabor Maté. One of the books that made me stop and think about everything going on in my life was When the Body Says No. It makes me think of all of these things we're experiencing that have symptomology but no cures, if you will. I'm imagining that in your work, people are walking in with symptoms, but there are all of these underlying stressors really driving them, because that's his thesis in that book, that it's the cost of hidden stress. That's what's showing up in our bodies. I'm imagining you're supporting with the herbs and also encountering those things underneath the symptoms.

Claire Bonin: Yes, that's such a good insight, absolutely. Gabor Maté is brilliant. He's made some really interesting contributions to the health and wellness field that I really enjoy. He's got some stuff that's a little spicy.

Ross Tayler: Not everybody loves him, though.

Claire Bonin: Yeah. But I do think the core of what you're saying, that hidden stress is detrimental to the body, we totally have the science to back that now. We know that high cortisol is terrible for your body. At least once a week when I'm sitting with people, that is typically one of the prongs of the approach I'm going to take: let's get you back into your body, and if you can't make a massive life change right now, let's at least help your nervous system cope a little easier.

Ross Tayler: Would I be right to say that herbalism is folk medicine, and I heard you say that makes it more accessible. In what ways is it more accessible? Is it cost, or is it just the approach? Could you say more about that?

Claire Bonin: Totally. Maybe accessible isn't the right word, now that I'm thinking about it, because there is a fairly huge barrier to understanding. That's also a thing that puts people off, because there's a huge learning curve to learning the actions and uses of the herbs. It's like learning a different language. But if you have a plot of land, or even a ditch that you really like, and a bunch of seeds, or if you know where the nettle grows in Nanaimo in the spring, that's your lymphatic tonic. You can go and wildcraft and be connected to the land in that way and get the therapeutic aspect of wild harvesting, which is its own thing. Plants are so amazing in the way they talk to us when we're in their environment. If you can get to the plants and go to them humbly, they will help you.

Ross Tayler: I love that. On the thread of the folk medicine piece, how is this going to play out in the future? I've heard in the last week people saying that as things intensify, we're going to have to come back to community. There are things coming that we can't necessarily anticipate, and we're already seeing our system struggling. How does this play into the future, in terms of how we might come back to this tradition of herbalism?

Claire Bonin: Man, that's such a good, loaded question. Where to begin? I think the future is a pretty terrifying thing to look at, first of all. We're all caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Either we're paying attention to what's happening in the world and stressed beyond belief because it's insane, or we're in a bit of avoidance. Back to that piece of people losing faith in the systems, I think that's going to drive a lot of people, with Neptune in Aries and Saturn in Aries happening next year. I think that's going to be a big driver for a lot of people to say, okay, I'm just going to have to figure this out. Community care is a really big thing too. I find myself thinking quite often that people seek out consultations just to sit with someone who has a regulated nervous system. It's as much about the plants as it is about that touchstone of another human being who's breathing your air, you know?

Ross Tayler: Yeah. That's the element that's really missing in this system, which is just moving no matter what. Four years ago, I was living in the Okanagan and I had some chest pain. It wasn't heart related, but I thought I should go get it checked out. I walked into the hospital because I felt I had no other choice, and the moment I stepped in, I was in that system. It works in a very mechanical way: this is the thing, go to this. At least in my experience, it's really missing the human connection you're pointing to. When we talk about the nervous system, one of the main principles, as you just stated, is co-regulation. When we are with a regulated nervous system, we naturally regulate. That is a huge part of healing, to be able to have that experience.

Claire Bonin: It's so big.

Ross Tayler: You're making me think of an experience I had years ago when I was working in a wellness center as support staff. Someone was having a panic attack. I went and sat with this person, and they slowed down a bit and looked at me and said, what's wrong with you? I was like, what's wrong with me? I'm the one supporting you. There's nothing wrong with me. Then I asked, what's wrong with me? He said, you're used to being supported by people who are anxious as they support you. What he was saying was that he had never experienced what it's like to sit with a regulated nervous system, and he was getting that experience now, and it was different, so there must be something wrong with me. For me, it was a huge gift to hear that. For him, actually, he just stopped seeking me out and sought out other people who weren't regulated. It was quite interesting, because that was what he was used to feeling.

Claire Bonin: That is wild. It's interesting to think about the different ways we can seek out relationships and even caretakers who are heightened. I'll never forget when I was in herb school. One of my favorite things about herb school was that I'd learn a new herb and then everyone in my life had to try it, because this was my new best friend. I had just learned a herb called shatavari, and I really love teaching on this herb because it's so yin and so down-regulating. Holy smokes, this plant will just bring you right into the present moment, and you'll be in the void. I gave it to one of my friends at the time, and she said, it's really disorienting being this calm. I was like, yeah, it is.

Ross Tayler: Right. I heard a speaker recently talking about homeostasis, and how chaos can be our homeostasis. We can be used to that as a norm. I want to double back, because I wasn't intending to make fun of anybody. I was laughing about my own experience of that, and how what we need can be so far out of our radar. When we have it, it's so nice to have that experience of someone actually listening to me, somebody with me, somebody pacing what I'm trying to say and understanding it, rather than just giving me what they think I need.

Claire Bonin: And that's just it.

Ross Tayler: Is there anything about what you do that I haven't asked about that you'd like to speak to? There are other things you do as well. You give readings, right?

Claire Bonin: I do, yes. I read the tarot, and I'm psychic and have some mediumistic things that go on in my sessions with people. That's a really big part of my daily life as well. It's not unusual these days for people to read tarot, but it's such a beautiful language to speak and a really fun way to connect with people. Even just to tie back into what we were saying about sitting with someone who has a permission slip for you to explore a different way of being in your body, a really important part of herbalism to me is that it's a good way to introduce energies into your system that you have very little familiarity with. I think particularly for people whose attachment styles might be a little more insecure, connecting with another human being may not feel terribly safe. A plant is a very nice way to start introducing that energy into your body and helping you get curious about what might be happening for yourself. The crossover with that and the more magical aspect of what I do is that, at its core, witchcraft is really just understanding how energy works and understanding how to dance with it.

Ross Tayler: It makes so much sense. When you go into the forest, there's nothing but presence. I don't even know if I can articulate what I just felt about what you said, but you're bringing the medicine of the forest into your body, and perhaps you've never felt that before. The plant is just doing what it always does. It's not necessarily magic. The medicine is just doing what it's always done.

Claire Bonin: That's such a good way to put it. Totally.

Ross Tayler: This feels like a good place to pause. I want to close with the question I always ask, which is, what would you say to someone to support them to bring the sacred into their life? What's one thing they could do to bring the sacred into their everyday?

Claire Bonin: I love this question. Simply because I'm preparing to teach on the lungs, so I'm a little obsessed at the moment, I'd say there's a relationship to the divine that happens when we're able to experience awe. In a really practical way, I would say to give oneself permission to value beauty more. Be really present with the experience of a sunrise or a sunset or the ocean, which we're so fortunate to have incredible access to here in Nanaimo, or being with a tree, or the stillness of the forest like you were saying, and be totally surrendered to that moment. I think that is beautiful, and the neuroscience backs it up, which also really helps. It's an important way for a lot of people to give themselves permission to experience the sacred, and also because it allows us to remember the sacredness that is within ourselves.

Ross Tayler: Thank you for that. I love that reflection, and I think it's really helpful. For people who want to stay connected with you, how might they find you?

Claire Bonin: Great question. The best way to get in touch with me is through social media, on TikTok and Instagram. If you're in Nanaimo, I am at Lobelia's Lair [?]. I always have tea going, so feel free to swing by so we can have a little cuppa.

Ross Tayler: Excellent. We'll put all those links in our show notes at the bottom. So great to have this conversation. I really enjoyed the pace and the reflections and the depth to which you were contemplating every question, your answers, and the places it went. There was an energy to this conversation that was really nourishing and supportive, and I just really appreciate all that you brought to it.

Claire Bonin: Thank you for that reflection. It's been really lovely connecting with you.

Ross Tayler: You're welcome.